Our Conversation with Jennifer Keishin Armstrong!

Please welcome the only other lady (besides Leslie Knope) to write a book on Pawnee! Today is a great day to recap the whole series, and amazing to do it with someone who has researched more than I have! We'll talk about the trajectory of becoming a pop culture historian and how she's the real-life Shauna Malwae Tweep! We talk about how audiences and critics received Parks after the Office, Chris and Ben changing our journey, Obama-era incremtalism, feminism and yes, we do talk about Mark Brandanawicz, because I needed it. We also give huge shouts to Amy Poehler, Morgan Sackett, Mike Schur, Dean Holland, Greg Daniels and so many more for giving us this gift of a show/comfort and for being the example you wish to see in the world. Also, major shouts to all the Leslie's of the world giving us Christmas Spectaculars, Harvest Festivals and more <3 We love you. 

Thank you Jennifer for stopping by, and please be sure to follow her and buy her book(s) anywhere you get books! So fun!!!!! 

https://jenniferkarmstrong.com/

https://www.instagram.com/jmkarmstrong/?hl=en

Transcript

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Holly
Well, thank you so much for doing this. I very much appreciate you coming on. This is so fun. I have to say, I feel like you're probably

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:45.791)
Sure.

Yeah.

Holly (01:59.39)
Like the one other person that has researched as much as I have.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (02:04.181)
But that's I mean that's why I wanted to talk to you because I was just thinking about this. It's like it's so fun when you're talking to like real fans as and who have read the book and it's that you know what I mean? Like cause then we can like get into it in a different way than like, yes, Leslie Nope is fun or whatever. Yeah.

Holly (02:21.895)
Right. Or like let me explain, you know, way more than I need to explain, you know, to someone that maybe isn't as familiar with the show. and I last or a couple of weeks ago I had Brian from the other podcast that has since ended, but Citizens of Pawnee podcast, and he says the same thing. He's always like, It's so nice to be on here 'cause like I don't have to worry about like annoying my friends with how much I'm talking about this or whatever it is

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (02:28.712)
Right. Exactly.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (02:38.675)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (02:47.472)
Exactly. Exactly that. Yeah. Like my spouse does not need to hear this anymore, but you know.

Holly (02:52.973)
Yeah. Yeah. And not even like I mean, yes, that too, not just annoying, but like your spouse might not understand or like know every single research aspect that you've put into this.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (03:03.208)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, this is really fun.

Holly (03:06.387)
Yeah. Well, I thought we could start by talking about first of all, your like trajectory, I guess, because the idea first of all, the reason I'm asking is primarily selfish because a pop culture historian sounds like something that could be my next career path. I feel but also secondly, I kinda wanted to get into like what interested you, obviously apart from being a fan of Parks and Rec, like your journey to getting here. It sounds like you were honestly like a real life Shauna Malway tweep in a way.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (03:35.686)
I I was. I definitely was. yeah, that's and I loved talking about that in the book. But so yes, I did make up the the title of pop culture historian, but I think we should all just do this more. I have a colleague who calls himself a charts analyst. He he does like the billboard charts. And when I saw that, I was like, I talked to him once about it and I was like, that's not like an official thing, right? He's like, no, I just

Holly (03:49.441)
Love.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (04:03.775)
I had to explain what I do, and that's what I do. so I was like, you know what? That's what that that's what I am now. I'm a pop culture historian because I really am. So, I've written this is my ninth book about pop culture history. Mainly I do television. I've ventured off into movies and music occasionally, but TV is sort of my, you know, number one area of expertise. And I'm very picky actually about

Holly (04:04.044)
Made it up.

Holly (04:15.214)
Amazing.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (04:30.536)
The shows I pick. this is be the TV book has become a thing in like the last 10 years and has gotten very like, you know, there are a lot of them now, and I have to, but occasionally I will hear about one and be like, okay, I guess she could write a book about that show. but I'm pretty picky. And, you know, I've written books about Seinfeld and Sex in the City and the Mary Tyler Bohr show, like big things. Do you know what I mean? So yeah. And

Holly (04:56.238)
Great shows.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (04:58.802)
It's gonna it is it has already and is going to get harder to have the level of show of like sidefeld and by level I just mean the popularity. Like forty million people would tune in to this show and I believe it's like eighty million for the finale. Like that's not a thing anymore at all. Yeah. So, you know, you're still looking for shows that a lot of people loved. and I'm also looking for shows that have a story to tell. You have to st

Holly (05:16.214)
No, insane.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (05:27.828)
fill 300 pages with something. And I'm not really one for like trivia. In fact, I'm not very good at trivia. Whatever they make me play trivia about my subjects, it is embarrassing. I just don't, I don't retain like actual trivia. Like what apartment number is Jerry Seinfeld's apartment. I don't know. I don't care. That's not I I have that written down somewhere. I can get that. but you know I care about like where did the story come from? How did it fit into

Holly (05:29.677)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (05:38.68)
That's so funny.

Holly (05:45.285)
Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (05:55.615)
the larger social context at the time, the TV landscape, and especially in the case of parks, what I thought was so interesting besides the political ramifications of it, was this very interesting and unique trajectory of like, it wasn't that popular when it was on and barely made it from season to season when it was on network television. And it's kind of the last bastion of like r network television really was like,

Holly (06:14.574)
Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (06:24.092)
a thing. You know what I mean? Like schedules and things like that were like still very important. And then it 26 episodes, which is in s actually insane. Like I like it, but it's in like you s you saw in the book, like for the people making it, it's like a lot. So you know that all of that, it was kind of the last

Holly (06:25.282)
Yes.

Holly (06:30.902)
Or like twenty six episodes or whatever per season.

So insane.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (06:48.628)
Parts of that while while DVRs were starting to come in and the and TV was freaking out about that. So that comes up a lot for the show. And they're barely making it. But it I think NBC was kind of like, it's better to have bird in the hand, right? Is you know, it's like, at least we kind of know this sort of this has some fans. We're just gonna leave it alone. And so they made it, you know, as long as they did. And what it was so interesting to me is that just a couple years later.

The sort of social landscape changes tremendously, as well as the TV landscape, which streaming becomes a major thing. It comes onto Netflix, a bunch of people are like, whoa, what's this? And discover it for the first time and love it. And now everyone is surprised, not everyone, a lot of people are surprised when I tell them. Like this was not a huge hit. They think this was always always like this huge comedy classic. And it's really that it caught on after its time, which I think is so interesting. And that was a story I wanted to tell.

Holly (07:44.462)
Awesome. Yeah, that's kind of how I mean, well, and you talk about this in the book as well, but that's how the office was too. I mean, I feel like they thought every single season was gonna get canceled, which is exactly how Parks was. so it's kind of amazing that this new streaming service idea made everything come back like s like yeah, like you said, I think there's a lot of people that are like, this was always a hit. And even younger people that I wouldn't have thought would watch The Office or Parks are super into it, especially the office, because there are some parts where I'm like

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (08:07.039)
Yeah. Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (08:12.466)
And love it.

Holly (08:14.975)
Really?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (08:15.218)
I know. Well, like what are they? I'm always like, what are you relating to? But I think it's, you know, it's certainly with Parks, I think, and probably to some extent the office, though I think Parks has actually more of this, which is there's like a a cartoony aspect. There's a real slapsticky, you know, every the characters are big and you kind of know what they're gonna do, but you love that. Like you're like, I can't wait to see what Ron does in this scenario or whatever. It reminds me a little of The Simpsons in that way.

Holly (08:18.844)
Yeah.

Holly (08:37.505)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (08:43.991)
Absolutely.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (08:44.178)
And I'm guessing that's what kids relate to is more like they connect to the actual these big characters, probably Michael Scott, you know, they're just like, That guy is so cringe, what is he gonna do next? kind of thing.

Holly (08:50.509)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (08:55.913)
Yes. I think the cringe and like the irony, a little bit of cynicism, especially in the office, is what like kids aren't really seeing as much of these days. So it's like new and exciting to them. but I do wanna it's really crazy. But anyhow, no, I do wanna talk about a little bit before you started your books because I was interested, so you were a reporter and then you moved into doing books, or like what was exactly the kind of trajectory or journey of yours? And I know you talk about it in the book, but I I wanna hear it from you too.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (09:02.143)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (09:06.526)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (09:22.94)
Yeah. Sure. Of course. No, that this is part of interviewing people about books, right? I'm always saying this too. Like, look, I really read the book. I swear, but please. But yeah. No, but that's great. We love it. Yes, absolutely. so the other funny thing about my my career trajectory when I talk about it now, I'm very aware that it feels almost like like the walls were crumbling down right behind me. So like everything I did is like

Holly (09:27.883)
I know.

I know, it's that thing where it's like, I I know you talk about this in the book. I feel like I'm gonna say that like a hundred times, but can we talk about it more?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (09:51.857)
not something you could do now as a path to what I do because everything has just crumbled. But that said, this period piece starts with me as a I was a local newspaper reporter for a couple years after college. That's one of the main reasons I first connected to parks really was the Shauna Malway tweep of it all, the media in particular. I covered small towns exactly like Pawnee.

Holly (09:59.469)
Ha

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (10:18.46)
So that was the part for me that was like, I couldn't believe anyone else cared. Like I can't I couldn't believe there was like a sitcom about local government. But in even though I didn't get into it to do that, like I was just trying to be a reporter, and that was something that was a path that was available and is actually something that was very encouraged at the time by my alma mater Northwestern University, one of the best journalism schools in the country. And they were very big on.

Holly (10:18.784)
Wow.

Holly (10:41.751)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (10:43.026)
You gotta like pay your dues at a local small town paper, you know, like that kind of thing. And all of our internships would be at small papers like that. that is what I I did it even in college. I was such a dork. I worked for the Daily South Town in my hometown summers. Even even during school, I would go review concerts for them. It was actually pretty cool. Yeah, it was really, really cool. And then after that for a few years, I covered small town governments in Southern California and then back in Illinois where I'm from.

Holly (11:04.045)
That's so cool though.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (11:13.212)
And so that was my first kind of like connection right away when I saw parks. I was like, this is amazing. Like they're doing city council meetings like I would use to cover. and they are it is really interesting, is the thing. It's both, I think it's so important to know your local politics, but I also, if you throw yourself into it, you see from parks, it's not that far off. It's a little zanier, but not much at times. And

It's genuinely interesting to go to like city council or you know, planning commission meetings or whatever. There's always wacky people there because it's only the most extreme people who show up to these kinds of things. And they have like very specific interests always. There's like when I used to do it, you know, somebody'd come up to the podium and be it's her again. She's gonna talk about the endangered egrets. Like, you just know, like, no matter what project it is, she's gonna be like, What about the egrets? you know, that kind of thing. And so I did that.

Holly (11:47.895)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (12:05.077)
For what felt like forever, but it was only like four or five years. it was very, very stressful. I was always working for daily newspapers, which meant one to three stories per day. but I've I'm very grateful for that training because I always say I don't believe in writer writer's block, because if you have to write one to three stories a day, you don't have time. Yeah, you're just get do something. And caught cold calling people, going up to people on the street.

Holly (12:23.959)
Gotta push through. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (12:31.58)
All of the stuff I had to just learn to do by sort of like immersing myself in it. Very, very stressful, very low paid, but I'm very glad I did it. And, you know, there was like a weird middle ground of here where I just got so sick of it, where I was just like, I can't do another update on like the plans for a new Walgreens or whatever. I just can't. that I and that was never mine. I never wanted to be like a news hound anyway. I was more of a like writer type. So

Holly (12:51.285)
Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (12:59.794)
I briefly, not really that relevant. I briefly had an interlude at a group of home decor trade magazines that I edited. it was fun. It was fun. I learned I learned a ton about like throw pillows or whatever. And so I and it was a really chill job. I could probably do it in like an hour or two a day. So it was a good time to like sit back and be like, what am I gonna do? I started freelancing for at the time VH1.com.

Holly (13:07.629)
Ha ha ha.

Holly (13:24.269)
Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (13:24.534)
doing like interviews and stuff. I'd run out to my car and do interviews on my cell phone during my lunch break and then come back in and work. Yeah, it was great. And then from there, I mentioned that only because that sort of like enabled me through a number of steps, but essentially to move to New York City finally and like do what I had really wanted to do, which was work for magazines. And I managed to land myself a gig as an assistant at Entertainment Weekly magazine.

Holly (13:44.599)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (13:51.315)
when it was still quite vital in the 2000s. And it was a real, it was a r it was, I think everybody always has a job that like changes their life. There's like one job where just it gives you kind of the rest of your life, if you're lucky. And that was it for me. I was there for 10 years. they actually said they hired me because Yeah. No, Entertainment Weekly. s so they they even said they hired me because I was a newspaper reporter. They were like, we love that you're trained in that.

Holly (13:53.229)
Wow.

Holly (14:09.271)
This is is this entertainment weekly? I or is it a different thing? Okay, okay, okay. Okay, yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (14:21.17)
We can teach you the entertainment part. We can give you the contacts for that. And so I really did. I mean, it was it was such a dream. I was like on the set of the OC. I was on the set of Lost. I was I did a ton of 30 rock and the office. I was actually I was on the set of the office for Jim and Pam's wedding. which truly, I mean, with all I used to be on set of Grey's Anatomy like constantly to the point where Patrick was like, Why are you still here? And I was like, 'cause they

Holly (14:50.467)
what are you doing?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (14:50.91)
Cause you sell magazines. Cause you sell he was like, I have nothing more to say to you. I was like, I I I'm sorry, you're gonna have to figure something out. You sell magazines. but

Holly (14:57.357)
So is so like okay wait, so I'm so sorry to interrupt you. I'm I'm curious, I've never heard this before. I mean I've seen articles of course online in my research and things like that, but I always assumed they were like after it had filmed, but you're saying there was like press on the set to like see what was going on? That's so cool.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (15:01.77)
No no no.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (15:07.369)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (15:12.646)
yeah, all the time. We were yeah, we were there all the I mean, this is this is why I say like it's interesting that you say that because I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm working on an oral history of entertainment weekly. So I've been talking to my former colleagues. And so I've been thinking a lot now about like I had sort of forgotten things. But at that time, things were di this was like we didn't know it was the last gas, but it but it was the last gas of of magazines, of this kind of media in general.

Holly (15:24.578)
No.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (15:41.877)
There's not it's so hard to get access now. This stuff doesn't, I'm not saying it never happens, but it doesn't happen like it used to. And we were there for like the heyday of EW, which we had immense power and immense access. I mean, the fact, like I said, they were I was flying out, I lived in New York, but they were flying me out to LA, you know, every few weeks to be on the set of grays or something like that. to the point where I spent like three Thanksgivings in a row there. Like it just

I was always there. I was, and then, you know, back in New York, I was on the set of 30 Rock. I did go out to LA for the office. I went to Hawaii for Lost for a week. yeah. It was cre like honestly, when I talk about it now, I'm like, that's insane. And I was just like some kid from the Midwest. You know what I mean? Like I it's crazy to me that this happened to me. It's really it was so special. And the office was actually particularly special. And I, you know.

Holly (16:32.109)
Beautiful.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (16:39.942)
Having said all the places I I was, you know, all the sets I was on, most of them were okay. You know, most of them were like, you know, they weren't mean to me. They weren't sometimes grays at their heights were a little stressed out. but you know, it's like this one though, the same way I talk about parks, it's like you can feel the way that the people who are making the show are have made this beautiful environment. And on the office, like parks.

There was a lot of improv, especially like I don't remember if they called them fun runs there too, but like basically fun runs. Like they do the scripted takes a number of times. And then at the end, if they had time, they'd be like, go do whatever. And watching Carell like improv in front of me at Jim and Pam's wedding was honestly, I was like crying because I was like, I can't believe that I'm.

Holly (17:30.989)
I can't imagine.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (17:32.298)
Seeing this, it was so I don't even remember what he said, whatever, but everything was hilarious. Like it was so I was crying probably because I was laughing. That's right. He it just was, and he was just the most delightful human they all were. And I just think that this does, I mean, obviously tie in with parks because they're made by the same people, but you can see how Greg Daniels, who made the office, and then mentored Mike Scher to make parks, you see how this like trickles down and it also just

Holly (17:36.875)
Yeah, it's like watching the Mona Lisa be painted.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (18:00.999)
Over and over again, this came to me while I was writing this book that like we need more people like this in Holly everywhere, but certainly in Hollywood where the it has this other reputation and they are proof that you can make two great ultimately hit shows that last while being great people. And I just it's to them, they're like, I don't see what like just be cool, like be a good person. It's not that hard.

Holly (18:20.717)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (18:28.51)
But it obviously is because we don't see it everywhere. And they just had this example of like, let's be calm and cool and have fun and make a good show. And it's like revolutionary.

Holly (18:42.541)
I talk about that all the time when I first heard Mike Share's rule of no assholes and that being like so

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (18:48.146)
Yes.

Holly (18:51.265)
prolific in a way or profound, which was, you know, and like you said, you know, you would think that it's not, but not too hard, but it is. And I think it all centers around ego. Like everybody wants their like shining light, but they are really about and Amy Polar talks about this as well, where, you know, they're like, it doesn't matter where the joke comes from. I don't care if I came up with it, if you came up with it, or like who performs it the best or whatever it is. It's like you switch that mindset, I think, from you know, having you be the shining light.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (18:53.62)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (18:58.922)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (19:08.434)
Yes.

Holly (19:21.209)
to the project being the shining light or like the comedy being the shining light. And that's that's why it's so fun to work with improvisers because that's really what they are known to do, slash like are always working on is making the other person look better and in turn you look better. And it's just like I think I think it's like you have to almost like analyze that mindset. No assholes is like the tagline, but it's like people don't really understand what goes into that or something. It's very strange.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (19:24.01)
That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (19:37.674)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (19:44.223)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (19:48.99)
Yes.

Holly (19:49.93)
But yeah, so I I I love that and I love that you talk about that in the book too. and I am curious, this is a little going back a tiny bit, but how did you get the entertainment weekly job? Was it like a a application that you just put in or how was that?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (20:03.943)
It was it was fairly magical. I think there was like a minor connection that like my ex at the time, my my fiance at the time, worked for Mercedes. And they and he like made an initial introduction for me somehow. Like somehow, like I guess they must have advertised with like time ink publications. And so I remember going to like a Time Inc interview that was mostly like an informational interview.

at HR and they did ask me like which of our titles would you like to work for? and I said entertainment weekly or teen people. And I also said real simple, but that's only because of that weird home decor job I had. And I thought it might work. It wasn't because I really wanted it. Like EW is something that I mentioned. Like I remember in college, my advisor asked me, like, what what magazine would you want to work for the most? And at that time I said EW or Rolling Stone. So this ended this really was like a dream job since college.

Holly (20:37.653)
Mm.

Holly (20:44.959)
yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (21:02.128)
And somehow I like wended my way through some immense labyrinth of applications. And they happened. I I can't I can't believe it really happened because this is kind of a thing where like you often hear it doesn't, like, you're gonna go to this informational interview and never hear from anyone again. And instead, like, not that long later, I got a call saying they're looking for an assistant at Entertainment Weekly. So I obviously wanted to apply for that. It was a long application process.

Holly (21:09.613)
Amazing.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (21:29.59)
many, I went for several rounds of interviews. There was like I think a test, some other stuff. when a funny story, this is just a funny job story more than anything else. But when I got I when I got that job, the first thing that my boss had me do was send the rejection letters to everyone who didn't get my job. And it's really actually a very I don't know if he was doing it as some kind of like Mr. Miyagi like mentor moment, or if he was just like, I just need you to do this.

Holly (21:39.841)
Yeah.

Holly (21:48.598)
Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (21:59.093)
But it was really nice to see like all the people I beat, just because I I felt like such a Midwestern, like I had no connections. I mean, apparently I did, because my Mercedes boyfriend hooked me up, but I'm sitting here saying that while that also was true. But you know what I'm saying? Like I yeah, and I came from a place where this was not a thing that it seemed like a possibility. That's what I mean. I w I didn't go to Columbia University and have like a famous

Holly (22:11.52)
Yeah.

Holly (22:15.818)
Interview and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (22:27.622)
A lot of these people that were in the mix were like Columbia grad students whose parent or teacher like hook them directly up with EW or golfs with somebody at whatever and all of that stuff. And so it was just, it was a real, it was really nice to see. And it was a lot of people. So I actually asked him at some point, like, why did you why did you pick me? And that's when he told me it was because I had reporting experience. which is just all

Holly (22:39.82)
Right.

Holly (22:52.579)
my gosh. What a crazy assignment though to get to for the rejections.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (22:56.242)
I know. It was really, it was like, I mean, it was it's it's weird and people often like recoil when I tell them that story, but I'm like, no, no, no, it's really nice because it's them the saying like you get to look at the cause he just gave me a stack of resumes, right? And was like, send stuff to these people. And so I got to look at all the resumes of the people that I beat out for the job. And I was a little intimidated. So it was it was kind of great. Yeah. And

Holly (23:16.759)
Yeah.

Holly (23:20.257)
Wow, that's amazing. And then as far as the go ahead.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (23:24.712)
I was just gonna say, and I should I always like to say just that like I had at that point worked very you know, I had worked for the local papers reviewing concerts, I had worked for VH One dot com. So like I did have the clips to kind of back this up and that's something that even applies sort of today, even though there's no media left. It's like if you're trying to get a job of some kind, like building that stuff up while you're doing the thing you don't necessarily wanna be doing is a really good idea. It's just the way it works. So

Holly (23:32.393)
Yeah.

You had experience.

Holly (23:48.823)
Yeah.

Totally. Totally. And it's not like you were writing these rejections like l letters saying like, Screw you, man, I got

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (23:58.45)
No, no, no. I think I just sent like a form letter to them from him. Yeah. Yeah.

Holly (24:02.737)
Yeah, like a template to everybody. Which honestly is like kind of a sign of the times because they don't even do rejection letters anymore now. Like no you just never know. Ugh.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (24:08.872)
Yes. I know. I know. I don't I guess it was in the mail. I don't remember that part. I do have a have a visceral memory of like the physical resumes. Like a pile of physical resumes that he gave to me, which makes me think it's I probably stuffed envelopes then. as opposed to sending like an email rejection, which would have been weird because it would have come from my email and that would have invited like, fuck you. like

Holly (24:20.885)
Mm.

Holly (24:27.519)
Mm, okay.

Right.

Holly (24:34.752)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (24:39.142)
Hi, I got your job. Sorry. The edge. Yeah.

Holly (24:42.637)
And so were you writing your books, your first books, while you were at entertainment, or was that something after?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (24:52.548)
yeah, so that was it was a little bit at the end slash after. So the story of that is that someone came to me and said, This is so weird, we want to do a book about the 1950s Mickey Mouse Club. to be clear, I was I was not around in the 1950s. but I had been writing a lot about Disney kids then, like more like Miley Cyrus and Selena and stuff like that. and so I was like, and also it was a major publisher offering like a hundred thousand dollars.

Holly (25:06.539)
Wow.

Holly (25:15.287)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (25:21.672)
So I and I had wanted to write books. Like that was my ultimate dream. So for me, I was like, let's say yes and figure this out. You know what I mean? Like I will now Google 1950s Mickey Mouse Club and we will be writing a book about this. So that's actually how I got my first book. It was not a passion project. it actually was really fun to talk to people who were child stars in the 1950s. Many of them were still alive at that point, most of them have died now.

Holly (25:24.749)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (25:30.464)
Yeah.

Holly (25:47.425)
Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (25:47.471)
so I think it was a really nice document of that time. It was super interesting. I learned about 1950s television and children's television and all of this stuff. but especially when I went to promote it, I mean, this is, you know, this is what we do to promote books. And like when I went to promote it, I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know, like I wasn't around, I wasn't a fan, I don't know these people. So what I when I went to write the next one, which I knew I wanted to do, it was a real learning experience. The first one's like, not the best, not my best work.

Holly (26:06.582)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (26:15.944)
But that should be true of anyone. I really learned to write write a book while doing it. It's harder than it looks. And I so the I did that and then I did that while I was at Entertainment Weekly. And that was a nightmare. Like things were getting really intense at Entertainment Weekly because like the internet is really booming at this point. And we've done major staff cuts after the 2008 crash. And so those two things together made it this

Holly (26:22.881)
Absolutely.

Holly (26:28.311)
Okay.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (26:43.356)
almost 24 seven job. So I was just like, and then I'd go home and I'd have to write my book. So I was like writing and then writing and then writing and then writing on the weekends and taking a vacation to write and just all the time. That's all I did. And so I was like, can't do that again. So my idea was what if I pitched my next book to be thought something I care about? That would be cool. And secondly, I wanted very much to make enough money to quit my job.

Holly (26:55.18)
Yeah.

Holly (27:04.139)
Yeah, that would help.

Holly (27:11.957)
Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (27:13.468)
Which really ended up being I just wanted to make the same amount that I had made on the last one. And I had savings from having I mean, the one great thing about working and writing your book at the same time is that you have like a lot of extra money. so I had I had the savings and then I was like, I have to sell the next book for like a hundred K or more. just barely got over that hump, did it. that was a book about the Mary Tyler Moore show. And so that was sort of how I the one nice thing about that. Well, there's many nice things. The

Holly (27:17.389)
Right.

Holly (27:23.757)
That's true.

Holly (27:35.607)
Okay.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (27:40.927)
one of the greatest things about that Mickey Mouse Club book though was simply that it occur like it had never occurred to me that you could write a book in this format, that you could be like, I'm writing a book about a TV show because people weren't doing that then. And so I was like, what if I picked a TV show that meant something to me? And so that was when I did the Mary Tyler Moore show, because I had watched like reruns as a kid and loved it. And also a lot of the women I was interviewing for Entertainment Weekly at the time, like Julia Louis Dreyfus, Tina Faye, those people.

Holly (27:47.917)
Mm.

Holly (28:08.04)
yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (28:09.374)
They all mentioned the Mary Tyler Bohr show as this huge inspiration. So I was like, that's interesting. That like Mindy Kaling, you know, like everybody. And so I just was like, that's interesting. What if it's like I kind of look back at this as this influence on so many of our current funny women? And so that was sort of how that happened. And I did quit my job at Entertainment Weekly. Yeah. And just well, no, it was it was also like, even though it was my dream job.

Holly (28:29.707)
Yay. Not yay, like, but yay.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (28:37.084)
As I was saying, I was getting pretty burnt out because it was so intense. I loved the idea of writing of like working on my own. I I don't do great at offices. weirdly, I'm a I'm totally type A and a good girl, but like I do so much better if I can just be left alone at home. So and I have I have enough self dis so people will always ask, like, how do you get it done? And I'm like, I don't, I just do. Like, I love it so much that I'm usually writing my books in between you know, like,

Holly (28:41.301)
Mm.

Holly (28:46.989)
Uh-huh.

Holly (28:54.455)
Yeah.

Holly (28:57.997)
I hear that.

Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (29:05.67)
even when I don't need to need to be on weekends, whatever. And in fact, right now I don't have a specific thing I'm working on and just making me crazy. So it just it works for me. And so that's what I that's what I did and have been doing since twenty eleven at this point is kind of churning out a book every year or two. really I guess it's every year and then promote year and then promote. and you know that's been really it's it's a nice way to make a living.

Holly (29:34.573)
my gosh, that's so cool. Yeah, I mean that's kind of like a dream of mine is to eventually like have what I like to do be my main source of income, but I don't know if that'll happen. So I'm just gonna have to do it regardless, which I have been. So it's always nice to see a success story.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (29:43.496)
It's really lucky.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (29:48.479)
That's it's exactly right. It's all it's totally the right thing to do. I do it's like I'm so cautious with advice now because first of all, like I said, so many of the things I got to do just don't exist anymore. And secondly, like be core relatedly, media is crumbling. And so it's just it's just not as tenable to say, like, go get a job covering entertainment somewhere. And I feel so lucky because I was a little

Holly (30:06.933)
Mm. It's so hard.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (30:16.638)
Like I didn't know exactly what I wanted to write about. I didn't, you know, I was like it allowed me to kind of like figure it out as I went, at EW from really smart people who then I could take it out into the world and do this on my own. And that I feel extremely lucky for in that I got all of that like experience on TV sets, which makes it a lot easier to then write these books because I have a general sense of.

Holly (30:24.993)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (30:45.246)
how things have worked throughout time, what makes certain things different, how this fits into the context of TV history, et cetera.

Holly (30:52.715)
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And as far as like your fandom, were you watching Parks and Rec when it first aired, I'm thinking, or were you was it like more of a streaming thing for you too?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (31:02.29)
No, I d I mostly was. I I did watch it partly because it was part of that whole NBC. This was still when we cared about, this is part of the NBC Thursday night lineup. to some extent that still had some sway. And I was at Entertainment Weekly at the time. So like I was extremely aware of its develop, you know, so that all that stuff that's in the book about like its weird early development as it was gonna be a spin off of the office, then it wasn't, but then they kept pretending it kinda was, but

Holly (31:11.232)
Yes.

Holly (31:19.989)
Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (31:30.982)
It was super confusing. I actually have a a memory of being confused along with everyone else, even as someone covering entertainment and specifically TV at the time. I was still like, but what why why is Amy Polar standing in front of a pit? Like, what does this have to do with the office? Like I remember being so confused, even as someone who kind of was supposed to know what was going on. So it was very confusing at the time. And I think I actually did.

like bow out for a while because that first season, as I talk about, was not great. And then kind of like kept hearing, you know, my God, no, it's so good now. So I tuned back in and then, you know, watched it for the I for the rest of the time. And I remember watching the finale, et cetera. but I rewatched it on streaming. And it was so it is fun to see that there's it's a different experience to like watch something from the beginning to the end, paying attention the whole time. And

Holly (32:05.973)
Up and up and up.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (32:26.118)
It was really when I I ended up interviewing Mike Scher a couple of years ago because I worked for the Peabody Awards in media and I did an interview with him for for that newsletter. And he talked about we talked about parks, but also the good place, which I was a huge fan of. And but when he talked about parks, it was sort of like, I don't know, I just hadn't thought that deeply about parks before.

Holly (32:41.847)
Mm same.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (32:50.054)
And once he started talking about like Obama incrementalism and like all of this other stuff, I was like, this is so much more interesting that I had been giving it credit for. And that was when I started to think for the first time, like, I could maybe write a book about this.

Holly (33:04.625)
my gosh, amazing. Okay, well, you touched on like nine things that I had questions about. So let's just start with one. Well, one of the things that stuck out to me, to your point, of was how much they did not want this to be a spin off of the office. And I think a lot of us who are fans of both kind of knew that that was where it started, as far as parks goes, and like we wanted to do another Mike Sure thing and Greg Daniels thing because of the success of the office and like NBC was just so gung ho about it and like you know, we've got all these fans now.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (33:08.234)
Let's do it. Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (33:30.248)
Right.

Holly (33:34.815)
which to me is a little bit of a tangent, but not really, which to me like NBC clearly saw, yes, that it was success, but also they had to know that the office started off tough too. So it's like to not to not see this coming and then still be mad at the parks people, I'm like, you guys, give it more than six episodes. my god. But anyway.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (33:45.842)
They d they absolutely knew.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (33:55.08)
Yes, very, very typical of T V people.

Holly (33:58.338)
Totally. So true, so true. So yeah, so that really stuck out to me that 'cause you talk about in the book how hard they were trying to make it not be the office spin off, even though the network was pushing for that. And I love the detail of the ideas that they were actually throwing around, like Andy having a family and it being called American Family, or how they flirted Id with ideas of having Jim and Pam be like the their story or Dwight and the beat farm or whatever. but once you could s once you saw Parks

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (34:24.35)
Right.

Holly (34:27.921)
which by the way, I I like those ideas, but I don't know that I would have been as invested. Those ideas seem more of like a web series thing that they were doing, instead of like to hold up a whole other show.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (34:38.899)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (34:42.387)
Yeah.

Holly (34:43.385)
but anyhow, so I I thought it was interesting because we've talked about this as we've analyzed it, but noticing and I I I like reading about the the history of it too or like the behind the scenes more so because we've talked about as we've analyzed the stark differences. Very subtle, but stark to people that are really noticing it. the and maybe stark isn't the right word, but intentional.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (35:01.855)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (35:05.641)
Yeah.

Holly (35:05.675)
differences that they made. And one of the things that I noticed was the talking heads. because definitely the two-angle thing, having two cameras on them instead of just talking to them. But also it was very intentional to me and noticeable to me, especially as the show goes on, that they're talking directly to the camera. They are not talking to an interviewer. And it is not like a documentary

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (35:14.388)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (35:26.376)
Right.

Holly (35:30.111)
straight up. And I think that also might have been, and as I've read reviews, first of all, reviews are crazy. I mean, I read reviews I know. I read reviews on an episode that I really love. And I know I'm biased. I love Parks, whatever. But sometimes these like reviews are just so strange to me. And so they talked about the in some of the reviews the talking heads were like

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (35:36.938)
It's one of my favorite things. I love reading them.

Holly (35:55.2)
Why is this never mentioned that it's an actual documentary? Why is it never talked about like it is in the office? And I'm like, that's on purpose. and I know that not everybody is, you know, gonna analyze it like we are, but I still think that you have to know if it's not gonna be the same. Because like, I understand the confusion that you were just talking about, but it's almost like watching, like, I felt this way, it's not a great comparison, but I felt this way.

watching Mandalorian when I was like, this is not Star Wars to me. Like it doesn't feel and then so once I like took it that away, I was like, no, it's not Star Wars. Or it's not like another sequel of Star Wars. Like that kind of

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (36:24.712)
Mm, interesting. Right, right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (36:34.014)
Right. Right.

Holly (36:38.167)
Took off the pressure from me as an audience member to understand it, but and give me like room to enjoy it, first of all. But secondly, understand that it is an iteration. But I thought that the talking heads, because it's a mockumentary, I thought that was so fascinating to have just that little difference of we're not gonna talk to an interviewer. You're gonna talk directly to the audience. And there's two angles now. So I thought that was really cool that you mentioned that.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (37:01.47)
Yep. Yeah, I love that stuff. I'm all I'm glad you like it too, because sometimes I'm like, is this all too I love getting into the technicalities. And they do too. Honestly, like that's such a Greg Daniels thing. Like I think at some point in the book he even says, like, we had all these like I feel like one of them was like they don't have blinds in the Yeah, they don't have

Holly (37:20.541)
Yes, I wrote that down. They don't have blinds in their talking heads or in any of the windows, which I never would have noticed that. That's awesome.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (37:25.052)
in the in their windows at all. I I wouldn't either, but he's like that. But when he was talking about that with me, I loved that he said at some point he was saying like here's all these differences we had. And he's like, and then the like it comes out and everyone's like just comparing it to the office and talking about, you know, and there he's like to me these are huge differences. And I realize like to a normal audience, they don't notice this is not coming through enough.

Holly (37:51.372)
Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (37:52.979)
So they had to differentiate themselves even more. And I did love, like one of the things I love about this story, and it's one of my favorite things about writing about television. and I think is gonna go away a little because TV production's different now. But at that time for network for 22 episodes, they're like going as it's going, right? Like they're shooting a couple weeks ahead of the audience seeing it, and they're really allowed to evolve on camera. And while that can be

painful as it is here at times, because those first six are like, I love seeing that. I love the way you get to see them figuring out like so many of the other differences that happen over time from the office are not mistakes, but flukes when they first do them, right? Like Ron swears in a it when when they're like letting him improv Nick Offerman

Holly (38:46.038)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (38:51.7)
Threw it a swear word and they were like, wait, what if we bleep? What if these people swear and we bleep, which is a difference between parks and the office? And it's something that you will see a I mean, parks is really influential in a lot of RTV now. And that is one thing you will see. if you're not on streaming where or cable where you can just swear, you will often still see some of these shows bleep. and then, you know, there was a time when they wanted to shoot like the Roomba through somebody's legs.

Holly (39:19.359)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (39:20.686)
And DJ Roomba, and they were like, this is a cooler shot than just like what would be the documentary shot. And they were like, you know what? Screw it. We're not a documentary anymore. You know, like don't worry about that. And the way that they were so meticulous, which I also enjoy. I love a like, I love when you have these rules and you're you abide by them. And like on the office, they were so meticulous about like if the if the you know documentary cameras here, you wouldn't be able to see this here.

Holly (39:30.037)
Yeah, all bets off, yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (39:49.993)
And you get those shots from far away, for instance. Like I always think of there's like there's a bit with Jim and Pam where we like see them across the road talking at like a gas station or something. Yeah, all of that stuff. And like I I love that they did that too, and then fully went meta the last season and did like here's the documentary crew. but it would have been think of how repetitive that would have felt if they did the exact same thing.

Holly (39:50.006)
Right.

Holly (39:58.006)
Right, like a hi yeah. Hidden camera, yeah, all that kind of yeah.

Holly (40:11.041)
Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (40:18.022)
On parks, it actually would have just been like, ugh, I've already seen this. It's a it's a sort of delight when you watch it on the office because you're like, they're really gonna do this. They're really gonna show us the documentary crew and all that. Whereas like it would just be like more of the same if they did it on parks. And I would say the other thing, like with the critics, especially, I think it's really important to remember that the office didn't totally invent the mockumentary, but it was real close to it. Like before that, it was mostly.

Holly (40:28.449)
Yeah.

Holly (40:46.221)
Especially in American television.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (40:47.964)
An American television, right? It's like before that, yes, we had a spinal tap we had, you we had Christopher Guest movies, that kind of thing. and then they did it in The Office UK, and then they brought it to America. So like it it is now a recognized sitcom form for us, but at that time, the office was more or less the first to do it. So it was a lot more fraught to bring it to a second thing in the office, right?

Reason they did it was to connect it to the office and to say, I did, or you know what I'm saying, parks. when they did it on parks, like they knew they were gonna do the same format because that is the one way you know this is from the people of the office. And also, I mean, people talk about it in the book, they loved it. It does a lot of stuff, especially if you're not in front of an audience. Like, this is kind of an alternate way with not having an audience. Like, okay, great. You it gives you a variety of shots.

Holly (41:20.874)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Holly (41:37.282)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (41:44.487)
It gives you a way for the characters to say how they're feeling. It's the best when they're saying one thing, but you know that it's the opposite. I mean, Amy talks about this a lot. Like sh the and the guys had told her as soon as she signed on, they're like, You're gonna love this. It's so great. And yeah, it just allows for all of those kinds of like character moments of like, you know, she's really into Ben, but she's like pretending not to be or whatever. You know, like it's really great in that way. And people do it all the time now, and we just accept it and like

Holly (41:50.262)
Yes, yes.

Holly (42:07.69)
Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (42:14.441)
That's it.

Holly (42:15.327)
Yeah, totally. There's a there's one episode, the Leslie and Ron episode in the last season, where we noticed that and and and it's not like noticeable, noticeable, but like if you're analyzing like we are, of course, it's the only episode that they do not use talking heads or do not even mention any sort of Doc crew. And I think they did that on purpose. just well and it was so powerful, I think, because you didn't get to have that like

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (42:30.088)
Yeah.

Holly (42:43.649)
This is how I'm really feeling. When Ron shuts down, Ron's not going to the camera being like, This is how I actually like wanna like we have to go with them on this journey and like discover it with them, or discover Ron's you know, asking for a job in the federal government with Leslie. You know what I mean? So it's like they used it in a way that was not a copy and paste, and like you said, they did you know, form and sprout all of these other shows like Modern Family and all that kind of stuff where the mock you

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (42:46.698)
That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (42:51.517)
Yep.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (43:12.393)
Right.

Holly (43:13.593)
documentary is more of a style than an actual documentary. And I think once you have that mindset, it does change, you know, like I said, I just feel like there's all this pressure, like that for some reason

Maybe not everybody's like this, but like there's a pressure for me as an audience member to like understand what's happening. And so once you kind of like take that off and you're like, no, that's not really what it's supposed to be. because and actually we just did the Johnny Karate show a couple of weeks ago and they had a very like it almost gave me chills because they don't really do this, but they had a very similar talk or not talking head, hidden camera moment between Andy and April, like in the back of the studio. And it was so Jim and Pam and so like hidden.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (43:31.496)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (43:39.114)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (43:49.416)
Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Holly (43:54.948)
like we're not really supposed to know and like it's like that hidden behind the wall. And they did do that a lot in the first season of Parks and maybe even some of the second. like you know they're shooting through the blinds or whatever it is. yeah, but or well so I guess there were like blinds maybe like one time or something. I've Right or something.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (44:05.803)
Through the yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (44:12.546)
S but but they would shoot at least like from another room to like into Leslie's office or something like that.

Holly (44:19.541)
Yeah, yeah. So it was really cool to see that too. but I thought what was most important for like making the difference between the office and the in parks, like the difference in tone because the cynicism and the sarcasm of the office, like that just was not the thing that they wanted to hold on to. And that's kind of something that I like noticed too. I love this quote on the in in the book about the Obama incrementalism. Like it was

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (44:33.054)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (44:47.901)
explicitly Parks was explicitly designed to be about the Obama era and the idea that Obama was an incrementalist. And at first I'm gonna I'm not gonna lie, I like, wait, what does incrementalist mean again?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (44:58.366)
I mean that makes sense. That's like not something we're throwing around all the time.

Holly (45:02.957)
This is absolutely what it is, because she Leslie Nope is an incrementalist. Like she makes the town better one step at a time in increments. That's what it means. And so and I also love the quote too of like, what if we mashed up the wire and West Wing and Obama but made it funny?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (45:05.939)
I know.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (45:10.588)
One tiny thing. Yes, yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (45:18.826)
Yes. I mean, and I also think like now that we know so much more about Mike Scher from his other work, et cetera, this all makes complete like this is so him. You know what I mean? Like, and just I think the addition of him in the end is what makes parks different from The Office. Mike Scher is not gonna make a cynical dark show. they purposely set it in parks to make it.

Holly (45:38.893)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (45:47.007)
d look different. Like they like, we'll be outside, it'll be bright colors. It'll be which is different from the office, right? And then you add in Amy Polar, who I think we all also know a lot better now, you know, as a person publicly. And she too, I mean, she just brings this like I don't know if optimism is even the right word for her, but like a brightness and a like, I guess optimism. I don't think that she's just blindly optimistic, Amy herself, but I think she's

Holly (45:50.581)
Yes.

Holly (45:55.625)
Yeah.

Holly (46:09.067)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (46:16.011)
Yeah. She's positive. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (46:17.3)
She'd rather see the good. She'd rather see the good. And so it made it very different from not only The Office, but other shows at the time. Like I think I always think of 30 Rock being on at the same time. And, you know, her and Tina being best friends, I think they're really like yin and yang to a lot to a large extent. And it's just like 30 Rock is pure, I think that's right. It's pure cynicism. Like I guess, I guess we might believe that those characters.

Holly (46:34.999)
Totally.

Holly (46:41.707)
Ha ha ha.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (46:46.292)
ki in the end care about each other, but that's not what that show's about. That show's not about whereas this show is could constantly about these people loving each other despite their differences and working together to solve problems, even if they are tiny problems and they are making tiny, you know, improvements in their in their s community, which was really what what shure was so taken by in local government is this idea that like, yeah

Holly (46:49.677)
Sure.

Holly (46:54.838)
Yes.

Holly (47:04.855)
Tiny little changes. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (47:15.6)
you can just make people's lives better by like picking up the garbage on time or improving or like having a festival. I think of Amy or Amy, ha ha I think of Leslie all the time now. I live in a small town where like there's a lot of festivals. And I just now always think like somebody somewhere is like putting their heart into this festival and, you know, and making it just trying to make everybody's lives a little bit nicer and

Holly (47:19.925)
Mm.

Holly (47:29.591)
Love.

Holly (47:37.324)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (47:43.517)
Especially in these times, as we say. it's it's a really nice thing to remember that like there's a lot of Leslie Nopes out there trying to make your life better, even if they don't know you. Like even if you're a stranger, they're just like trying to do stuff right. And it's it's that to me is what's so inspirational about the show and makes it such a counterweight to a lot of the cynicism that I think was very much going around in the late 2000s and 2010s.

Holly (47:45.529)
my gosh. Totally.

Holly (47:55.137)
Yeah.

Holly (48:11.809)
Yeah, totally. I agree. And that was kind of a thing that stuck out to me in the book as well. where the first season they had to make a shift into the second season, because like you said, this the critics kind of had their own thoughts and the audiences were confused and all these things were happening. So they were like, How do we pivot and shift? And one of the things that they wanted to change Leslie from the first season was that she like wasn't competent like as a political, savvy person employee, and she was a little air.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (48:25.341)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (48:38.281)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (48:40.265)
petty and stuff in the first season. And I don't know, man. I like kind of disagree with the critics on that. I may again, like I said, maybe I'm biased, but I thought she was running political forums. Like she was still doing her thing and she was still very organized. But I think that what people meant by that was like the optimism was not seen in everyday life. And that like really positive like we can do this Obama vibes was not really hope was not really

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (49:05.791)
Yeah.

Holly (49:08.823)
Prevalent in the time. And to see it on especially even on TV, I feel like where we're supposed to kind of suspend reality, even the hope wasn't really there. So I think that's kind of what they talked about with with switching the second into the second season where she has to do the Harvest Festival and really show her confidence. But not only that, what really struck me, because like I said, I am biased and I thought she was already politically savvy, but whatever, we'll set that aside.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (49:10.344)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (49:14.834)
Right. Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (49:34.356)
Yeah.

Holly (49:35.238)
For me, what really stuck out was that her coworkers were not undermining her as much in the second season. And as the that's the key to me, because the people that she was surrounded by started to really respect and listen to her. They took her more seriously. So even though she was over the top, they not only understood it, but they accepted it and kind of liked it in a way. Even Ron like knew the benefit that he was getting by having Leslie be his number two. And so I think that was really important.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (49:42.356)
Yep. Yep.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (49:56.552)
Yes.

Holly (50:03.943)
in the book for me to read after the critics because I was like, yeah, that makes so much more sense.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (50:06.836)
Yes.

It's a really, I mean, I am fascinated by all these little details. I think it's a really you can learn a lot about how to write scripts from this stuff. Like how interesting that what the that the real change is like the way people around her are responding to her. Right. That that that them being like, look how competent she is, immediately changes our perception of this character and makes us like her more. I think I have a theory too. I can't even remember if I said this in the book or not, but like

Holly (50:29.644)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (50:38.792)
I also think, you know, they were they were dinged for kind of making a female ma Michael Scott. And I think people were looking for that comparison and found it. But I also think it's interesting that a woman cannot be as doofusy and incompetent as a man and be liked. Right? I think that's

Holly (50:44.523)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (50:57.293)
Absolutely. I have a note about that too, like the feminism aspect of it, but not just even feminism. It was just more so like the audience was a little bit like stunned or something, confused. But yeah, that's a great point. Like you can't have a Michael Scott be a lady.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (51:02.964)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (51:14.696)
Nope. It's just a total and I understand that it has to do with the actors too, but like it and Carell is just like so likable that it turns out he can sell us anything. It's crazy that we could even deal with Michael Scott in that first season. but I mean, by the way, he evolves too. They make him way better. They make him way sweeter in that show. So it's not just Leslie, but

Holly (51:27.979)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (51:34.133)
thousand percent.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (51:39.647)
Yes, I do think it's very interesting that you can make these subtle changes. It reminds me a little of like, I don't I don't know if you've studied screenwriting at all, but there's this idea in screenwriting of saving the cat. And if your character's a little unlikable, a good thing to do early on is to have them save a cat or a child or an old person, like have them be nice to a vulnerable class of some kind. And that makes you immediately go, like, they like cats. That's nice. And like

Holly (51:57.327)
sure.

Holly (52:05.067)
Yeah, I think.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (52:07.027)
You know, this is some the Mary Tyler Moore show like tested badly when they first did their pilots. So one of the changes they made was just there was a character named Rhoda, and everybody said they didn't like Rhoda because she was loud and obnoxious. And so the one change they made is to have a little girl who's somebody's daughter in it say, I really like Aunt Rhoda. And then that made all the difference. So it there's it's I think it's a s it's a similar thing here, though, is that they were like, What if

Holly (52:25.909)
Awww That's crazy.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (52:32.286)
We had all of these coworkers instead of being, they set them up as, and that's what you do too. You want conflict. So they created them all as essentially, you know, roadblocks. Yeah, exactly. How's you know, April's gonna be really, really cynical and dark, and that's gonna be how she stops Leslie. You know, Ron is a libertarian, so that's you know, so like that's how they set them up. And then they realized as they went, like, ooh, we went too far. Like she needs to have allies here.

Holly (52:41.057)
Like foils for your hair.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (53:00.274)
And that turns out to be the most beautiful part of the show is the way they all constantly come together to help her and to help each other and to help Ponti.

Holly (53:00.363)
Yes.

Holly (53:11.015)
Yeah, and I think that's true of like all the characters. Like I think about that with Michael Scott, as far as in the episode in particular I think about is when he talks to Stanley after he like yell after Stanley yells at him and where you have to and I think Carell said that or no no no maybe it was Gervais. I can't remember. One of I think it was Gervais that was like, we can't have him be all bad, like all incompetent. And so you have to have those little moments. And for Leslie, that wasn't necessarily the problem there, but like you

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (53:33.833)
Yep.

Holly (53:40.862)
said the coworkers kind of rounded it out for her character and then I think about this just with characters in general like I think about that with Andy like there he he's kind of like Kevin in the office where like he can't be that stupid like and so they give him little tiny pieces of like intelligence and compassion and I mean he's he's accepted because obviously he's a funny of course but B just like so lovable and and he loves everyone and everything. but there are

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (53:49.33)
Yes. Yes. Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (53:58.92)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (54:05.129)
Yes.

Holly (54:09.207)
points in particular where he shows his, you know, hi his brain does work and that's really important, I think, to kind of like tie you back in, you know. so I thought that was really cool.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (54:22.708)
For sure. Mm-hmm.

Holly (54:24.341)
But also I w I forgot to well didn't forget, but I wanted to kind of keep going with the conversation. But I'll jump back to one of the things, another difference from the office too, and I talk about this all the time. I'd love to talk to him eventually. But Dean Holland is like one of my like dream interviews slash just coffee chats. Because in all of my research, yeah, in all of my research I have noticed that the reason that Parks is

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (54:27.966)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (54:40.01)
Mm. I love that. That's so great.

Holly (54:51.511)
Quite different. I mean, obviously there's so many reasons that we've mentioned. But I feel like Dean had such a hand in why it was so different as far as how it was aired. And those jump cuts that you talked about in the book is something that we've talked about so much. you know, having the candy bag alts of like different lines that could be pitched, and instead of picking one, you just air back to back. And for the listener, you know, that could be the mouse rat names and just like airing all of them. all of Leslie's reasons.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (54:53.566)
Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (55:01.876)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (55:13.842)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (55:18.408)
Yes.

Holly (55:21.615)
how she like wasn't gonna get married or whatever, like just back to back all these jokes instead of picking one. And I also think Dean did a really good job of not only that, but the edits of like when you think that it should go on longer, he cuts you off. And that just makes it so much funnier. And I think about what after the snake juice episode or the fight is what it's called. And Andy is shining so Kyle's shoes and he throws up and it like immediately cuts off as opposed to like watching how that would

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (55:25.833)
Yep.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (55:29.311)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (55:43.976)
Right, right.

Holly (55:50.494)
End. Like that is all Dean. And I know Mike was Mike Sure was in the edit room a lot with that. And I know that Mike Sure had a lot to do with it. but Dean was one of the ones that directed the most too. And so I just I really commend him and Mike Sher for like making that teammate like interaction for the for the edits because Parks is is just it's his stamp is on is everywhere, I feel.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (55:51.774)
Yes. Yep.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (56:12.468)
Absolutely.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (56:17.896)
I yeah, I nerded out a lot with him because I do I watched like a there's a whole great documentary and I can't remember the name of it about editors. And people don't realize I don't think all the time, regular people who don't think about this stuff as much as we do, don't realize how much editing makes a difference. And you're right that especially here, well the other thing I think of at times it's the cutoff, but my I mean, this is not an unusual, you know, opinion at all, but maybe my favorite scene is get on your feet.

Holly (56:25.453)
Mm.

Holly (56:46.852)
my god.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (56:46.954)
at the right. And I've showed the sequence. It's actually quite long. And I actually usually show it with this the the lead up to it, which is them in the locker room saying all the things that didn't get done, because it's the only way to set up that other part of the clip. And it's really quite long when I show it in my presentations, but I always start with it because I'm like, I'm sorry, this is I laugh every time. And the thing about the ice sequence is that it goes on too long. And that is why it's funny.

Holly (56:58.935)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (57:09.73)
Yes.

Holly (57:13.613)
Yes so true.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (57:15.804)
You're like sitting there going like, I can't believe this is still happen like w a a lesser show would have made that half the length. But the reason that you're dying is because you're like, How am I still watching this? And then they'd still do her speech, which is kind of like cringy too. And then you're like, Okay, that's enough. And then they still have the guy come out and do the the, you know, try to dunk and he misses. Cause you think at that point at least

Holly (57:32.749)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (57:44.352)
Amazing.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (57:45.673)
He's gonna make the shot. Like that's kind of what I thought the first time I saw it. Is like they've had such torture going up to this that the the payoff is gonna be that at least he makes the shot. And instead he just like slams down on the ice. And you're like, I can't believe it's it to me, there's a million reasons that is a great sequence, but that is one of them. And that's also restraint. Like he could have cut that at any time.

Holly (57:58.975)
my gosh.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (58:11.654)
And been like less patient and like we only have twenty-two minutes. How is this thing eight minutes long? But I I think it makes it in that case. I just think there's so many times. Mm-hmm.

Holly (58:20.021)
That's a fantastic point. Yeah, when like 'cause yeah, it goes both ways. I was talking about cutting it short or adding all those other sequences and for the alts, but that is so true. There's many times in parks that I can think of that they went on way too long. But that's what makes it funny. So that's a great point.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (58:37.512)
And that's where you're just like, my god, I'm how am I like that is the cringe, but the good cringe where you're just like, my god, how am I still watching this? What's happening?

Holly (58:42.591)
Yes.

Holly (58:47.291)
my gosh, that's so true. And that episode in particular, so we've talked about this too before where we always ask people like what their intro to parks would be for someone who's never seen it before. Like for the office, you know, it's dinner party, it's those kind of big episodes that like just have no

No way that you can't laugh. You know what I mean? And so I feel like I feel like for Parks, the get on your feet episode is like the top one. I always say that and even like Ben and Leslie's wedding, even i even if you hadn't watched it before, it's just so heartfelt and funny at the same time. which, you know, you could start with the one before that I th or maybe it's the same episode, the the like shutdown, the lockdown or whatever the test.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (59:06.185)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (59:12.308)
For sure.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (59:15.826)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (59:26.74)
That's the f I think that's before it. That's like one before it. Yep.

Holly (59:29.685)
Yeah, it's like the first part of it, I think. but anyhow, so yeah, that episode is just like brilliant. It's so funny.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (59:37.064)
I say that's the other reason I use that sequence at my talks is because I it's probably there's probably not a ton of people at them who have never seen parks there, but there can be a few sometimes. And I feel like the entire show is in that sequence. Like you don't even have to do the whole episode. It's just them all saying, We're trying to help you, but we screwed it up. And then the real key to me is that they all say, Let's go out there together.

Holly (59:53.771)
Rights. So true.

Holly (01:00:05.674)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:00:05.705)
Like, do you remember there's that whole bit about like we could go do karaoke? And then Ron, of all people, is like, no, we're going out there together. And that's why you get them like scooching on the ice with the dog and the whole thing. And the point I always make about this, which I've watched it too many times, but the point I always make about it is like it actually would have been better if they didn't go out there together. Like, like, like on a in a technical physical way. Like it'd be better to just if she went out alone, she could just kind of scooch on the ice and it would be fine.

Holly (01:00:09.225)
Right.

Holly (01:00:25.516)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:00:34.804)
But they insist on going at going together and like falling down together. And that is just it's both touching and funny. And it's also just touching and funny. And you can understand that sequence having never seen the show. So that to me is like, watch those eight minutes or so and you've got all of Parks right there.

Holly (01:00:38.484)
Yeah. Yeah.

Holly (01:00:53.441)
Yes, that's so true. my gosh, love. So good. so we talked about how it differentiates from the office, how parks differentiates from the office, but the other thing that you talked about in the book was how they wanted to switch the second season up a little bit after the critics, which we kind of touched on a tiny bit, but I made some notes that I like, I wouldn't have really thought about it. one of the turning points was the rock show episode in the end of season one. because which I think is fantastic. and very interesting when you

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:01:08.968)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:01:17.854)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:01:23.471)
really like say it out loud that they needed to get everyone in the same room because they weren't really primarily doing that at the beginning. I thought that like they were isolated a little bit or they only had two characters or whatever. So they needed the ensemble piece of it to come through. And I think that's really brilliant. We interviewed Norm Hiscock who wrote that like s a long time ago. He's like the nicest dude ever. I mean they all are. They're so good. they're so good.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:01:31.625)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:01:35.977)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:01:42.89)
Love him. I love him so much.

Holly (01:01:49.558)
And I love I didn't realize this either, that Norm wrote the first lyrics of The Pit and then Rivers came in to do like the music or whatever. my god. I I wanna talk to Mark Rivers too. The idea that I love this quote, they needed a guy to write some stupid songs and my name came up 'cause he had done I think Aziz.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:01:54.91)
Yes Yes Yes

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:02:06.059)
They're so he's so he's so self-deprecating though because to me, like there was no way I was doing this book without talking to whoever did the music. And like, I'm sorry, but the pit and 5,000 candles in the wind in particular are truly legit songs. Like I learned them on guitar. Like it's especially, especially 5,000 candles. Like the pit is supposed to be.

Holly (01:02:17.365)
Yes.

Holly (01:02:25.535)
They are my god.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:02:32.97)
Pretty dumb and it really is like I think three or four very basic chords and the lyrics are hilariously repetitive. But yeah, by the time he's doing Five Thousand Candles in the Wind, I'm like, dude, that is like a song. That's like a banger. You know? Catch Your Dreams is great too.

Holly (01:02:33.901)
Repetitive, yeah.

Holly (01:02:45.49)
Yeah. I think Catch Your Dreams is also a legitimate song. Come on!

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:02:52.552)
I know. I I mean the music is so s I think kind of secretly it wasn't something I thought about when I was first first pitching the book. And then very soon after I was like, I had not even thought about I mean they do have an album, you know, there is mouse rat, but like music is so important in the show and it's critical at a number of tim like that rock show, I mean that's such a like they really they really did that in the end. It was such a good idea. Like it's such a perfect like season one finale. You get

Holly (01:03:09.195)
So important.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:03:22.484)
This you get a real concert, you know, and it's so dumb, but also kind of rousing. And I think it's interesting that he's like kind of a good frontman. Like, what's one of the ways? It's it's one of the times I think in Rock Show, to some extent. I know it's still kind of dumb and is like he has the whole thing about all the different band names and everything. Like he's still a little dumb. But like he gets on stage and you're kind of like, I don't know, maybe is Andy.

Holly (01:03:28.813)
Totally.

Holly (01:03:32.757)
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:03:49.621)
Good? Like is he a little bit of a star? Like I kind of get why April's into this. Like I I don't know. I think I think that's it definitely is his turning point. I mean, we know that that they saw that and they were like, well, I guess Pratt's a regular now. Like weren't planning on that.

Holly (01:03:50.231)
Yeah.

Yes.

Holly (01:04:04.749)
Mm. Yeah, and it's really

Yeah, exactly. I love that behind the scenes moment too, that he wasn't supposed to be there for the whole series and he was just so good that they kept him. But yeah, I think it's really interesting too the music part, that we have a musical cast and crew, really. I mean, the crew was also really good or not good, but they were like just heavy fans of music, which we see in the Unity concert when they knew so many people and you know, Retta and Nick Offerman and all these people that were actually very like musicians, you know. So I thought that was really

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:04:16.148)
So good.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:04:30.869)
yes.

Holly (01:04:38.004)
And Pratt has a great voice, I think. So I mean, especially for a rock band.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:04:41.034)
I mean he's doing yeah, he's doing nineties rock voice. Like he I he's clearly like doing a bit, but he's in tune roughly. And that is exactly what I love when he says his influences are like Matchbox 20 and like it's just like cause yes, of course they are. Like I can hear that you love Creed. you know, like that's

Holly (01:04:44.309)
Yeah, come on. Yeah.

Right.

Holly (01:04:56.775)
Right. Of course.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:05:04.446)
That's just I always say that's nineties rock guy voice. Like that's how everybody sounded on the radio then. You just were like, you know, like it's great. And he can play guitar. Like, so you're right. They just were all very musical. And I love that they ended up using Offerman's musical talent to some extent. I mean, he isn't really playing the saxophone, but still he is a musical guy and like, you know.

Holly (01:05:10.407)
Yeah, a hundred percent. I love it. Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:05:25.885)
Yeah. I think that's interesting. I think l yeah, I I didn't know that either because I know that he plays the saxophone, but I didn't know I I think I think he plays like a little bit more so towards the end because yeah, you mentioned in the book that he was primarily playing over tracks at the beginning because he like knew how to play and knew what was going on, but he was

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:05:41.791)
Right.

Holly (01:05:45.015)
kind of mimicking essentially. so that was really interesting to learn 'cause I know that, you know, he's he's a musical dude. Like in his variety shows and stuff, he sings and plays ukulele and knows a bit of the sacks too. So I thought that was interesting they wrote that in for him. So yeah, that's super cool.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:05:52.702)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yep. Yep.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:06:01.887)
I mean you can see they obviously like wrote in they as they got to know people, they just were like, Okay, we're writing this in now, like woodworking, this and that, you know, all of that stuff kind of like comes in at f as part of the people who are actually playing them.

Holly (01:06:06.721)
Definitely.

Holly (01:06:15.071)
Yeah, totally. one of the other things too, apart from the rock show episode, things that you like we switched in sec the s the second season in addition also to her co-workers not undermining her, it actually kind of like lends itself. And I actually I saved the page. Hold on, it's page one fifteen for those following along. The Christmas spectacular. That was the the other part that was, you know, something that they needed

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:06:33.706)
Yes.

Holly (01:06:41.355)
to show us. and I just wanted to read this really quickly because I really like it. It says it may not have stood out as a turning point to a casual viewer, but it changed the essence of Leslie's character and the series' core philosophy going forward, which I really like, because like if you go to a Christmas spectacular or a kids' concert in a park or say a harvest festival, like you were just saying, actually, you have a Leslie to thank. And it shined a light on the sincere and competent government official

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:07:02.462)
Yep.

Holly (01:07:07.883)
battling through a Byzantine system to make life better for the people she serves. And I was like, okay, so we do need to see that portion of it because we saw it a little bit in the pit, but I think, yeah, you you see it a lot in the Christmas spectacular, how much energy she exerts to make her community feel better.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:07:27.752)
Yeah, and then it becomes a joke that I noticed they then can say really quickly several times. Like I feel like Ron says it a lot after this, which is so something to the extent of like, well, it would, you know, it's gonna take like 10 of us to do the job of one Leslie, essentially. That comes up over and over. But that episode did stick with me. I mean, I that came from me asking Sher specifically. Like a question I asked all of them was when, what do you see as the turning points of the show? And he mentioned that.

Holly (01:07:42.113)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:07:56.379)
And but then I also remember I I remembered that episode. I remember noticing like what a lovely idea that like they all go around and they're like, well, why would we give those guys beer? That's stupid. And it's like, well, you'd give them beer because she knows that that's how you get them to clean up after the thing and blah, blah, blah. You know, like all of that. I just thought was so lovely. And then from then on, we've got like Leslie and her binders and, you know, all of that.

Holly (01:08:13.366)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:08:18.421)
Yeah. Well and I think I I I felt like the pit also was and I it was for the community, but it was also to appease this one person at a public forum kind of thing. And it had it had had issues with other people, like it wasn't just Andy, you know, but it did not it was not an event for the community, showing

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:08:28.084)
That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:08:32.158)
Yep. Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:08:37.364)
For everybody.

Holly (01:08:38.985)
Yeah, showing how much she cared about making people feel heard and seen and having a good time for the families and whatever. So I think that's really important. and so I thought that was totally worth mentioning as far as a turning point. But the other turning point too, of course, and I know we ha we'll probably talk a long time about this, but was Chris and Ben in season two coming in. And I didn't realize too, I love this that you put in the book that

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:08:44.841)
Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:08:56.458)
That's my guys. Yep. Yep.

Holly (01:09:06.453)
Rob Lowe talked about the intensity of Tom Cruise's character, and that's where Chris Traeger kind of was born. I thought that was so funny and cool.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:09:14.614)
Ugh, what a great, I mean, first of all, just like Roblo, such a good interview. that's just when you're like, you're a pro. I remember I had, you know, his people were like very high strung and he was in the minimum filming, and it was like, you only have 30 minutes or whatever. and it might have even been 20, I don't remember, but it was like short for what we wanted to do. but this man gets on the phone and is just gold on gold on gold.

Holly (01:09:20.77)
Mm.

Holly (01:09:41.381)
my god.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:09:41.405)
And yes, I loved that story because I feel like I hadn't even heard it before, which is like, yeah, he went in for this meeting, which it was a whole elaborate thing. I I did love that he wanted to be on 30 rock. And that's how he got the meeting with Shur, which I also didn't know before. That he basically and can you imagine being Roblo, where you're like sitting around thinking and you're like, you know what? I think I want to be on 30 Rock. I'm gonna call my agent. Hey, can I be on 30 Rock? Like

Holly (01:09:53.001)
Yeah yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:10:07.539)
He had a good pitch. Like, could I have like a rivalry with Alec Baldwin's character? I would have watched that. but they were like, Well, maybe, but we we have this other show that like really needs you. And so he takes that meeting. And yeah, he starts talking about Rob or about Tom Cruise ordering a glass of water and does like an impression of him. And that's like immediate like sure said, like, that I need a glass of water. Must be cold. Yeah.

Holly (01:10:28.533)
Would it cold. I would like these many ice cubes. Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:10:37.292)
must be this high. yeah. And Sure said it was one of the few times it's happened to him that just like a full character just like dropped into his head in that moment watching him do that. all of which speaks to just like both of their talents, I think essentially, if you really think about it. It's like it's f like that's Rob Lowe being funny, first of all, which he wasn't always known for. I love when Rob Lowe is funny. And so

Holly (01:10:53.367)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:11:03.91)
Mike's like, this guy's funny, you know? And then he's also like, and this is exactly who this character would be. And I it is a thing of mine. I love when a character thing essence includes the fact that someone's really good looking, because like all actors are really good looking. But I so love when shows acknowledge that someone is like exceptionally good looking. And especially when he looks like that, you just have to kind of be like, part of this character's deal is like he's a fitness freak and he's really good looking. but he

Holly (01:11:17.308)
Ha ha.

Holly (01:11:31.245)
Absolutely.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:11:32.456)
But kind of dorky, which is so endearing for him. And yeah, I loved that too. I loved that he was just like, this is who this character's gonna be. It is definitely not like it was supposed to they were looking for Leslie's love and trust. And instead Roblo dropped in their lap. And they I love also that he was like, Yeah, Roblo is not Leslie's love and trust. That's not gonna work for me. But I do know what I want him to do, and this is it. And the network let him because Roblo was magic at the time for TV ratings. So they were like,

Holly (01:11:35.401)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:11:51.777)
Right.

Holly (01:11:56.129)
Yeah.

Holly (01:12:01.294)
Total magic. Well, and it's so ironic too that Will Arnett ended up being the rival for Alec Baldwin on 30 Rock. That's so funny. and then it's also funny, too, to me that well, one of the things Well, okay, I have like a lot of things running in my mind. the first thing is that

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:12:01.972)
Do whatever you want with them. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:12:07.903)
Yes, I know I know I know.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:12:18.106)
Ha ha ha ha.

Holly (01:12:22.625)
it's funny to me that Ben or Adam Scott auditioned to be well, first of all, the office, but secondly, to be the character of Josh or whatever, for Anne to be the love interest or whatnot. and so I thought that was really cool that they kept Ben in

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:12:31.432)
Right. Right.

Holly (01:12:37.813)
mind or Adam Scott in mind. And one of the things, and that's that for me, that is a turning point because that and I remember it so starkly when we were reviewing that episode, Kirsten Mann, the costume designer, did such a fantastic job of making them so not pawnee with their like sunglasses and cool slick hair and suits and all this stuff. And we're like, my God, this is like serious. And so I think that was a really big deal. And I yeah, I just love that

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:12:40.04)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:12:49.567)
Yes.

Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:12:59.732)
Yes.

Holly (01:13:05.131)
that's kind of where the project came into for the Harvest Festival, which builds even more on the Christmas spectacular of like making it beautiful but also saving jobs. But, you know, so I thought that was awesome. I loved it.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:13:09.012)
Yes.

That's right. Mm-hmm.

I I am like, I have a massive crush on Adam Scott. and especially maybe maybe Adam Scott has been, even specifically. so it's very confusing and parasocial, but like I just he is, I think, still a little bit of an underrated leading man, and I mean specifically a romantic leading man. Like, I always talk about people who can generate their own chemistry, like who will have chemistry with anyone they are paired with, and I believe that he is one of them. And he has that kind of like,

Holly (01:13:21.301)
Me too.

Ha ha.

Holly (01:13:29.377)
So true.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:13:46.12)
He's cute, but not too much. He's not doesn't look like Roblo. He doesn't he's not intimidating. You kind of feel like he could be your boyfriend. And so I just he's perfect here. Plus just like he can kind of be a nerd at it, right? Yeah.

Holly (01:13:53.493)
Yes.

Holly (01:13:58.934)
Yeah, well I think you talked about that in the book a little bit about how he's like like a normal nerd and not like I hate to say it, but like the big bang theory like stereotype of a nerd. And because there are so many people like that, I feel. So I I felt like that was really cool. I mean and speaking of that, I mean, have you seen him on Boy Meets World? I know he was like a baby then, but when we when he first came on, we did

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:14:05.042)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:14:22.122)
So cute.

Holly (01:14:23.394)
We did like a breakdown on Adam Scott and I was like, shit, he's like sexy bad boy in Boy Meets World. Like like you said, he can kind of do it all.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:14:26.247)
I love that.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:14:30.28)
Right? And he can be that's he can do any like comedy drama, bad like terrible, the worst person you've ever seen, or Ben, who is the greatest person. Like it's very I there's very few people I think who can do all of this. This is why he's so good on severance, is because he kinda is doing a little bit of everything and and holding that whole show together. So I just think like I I cannot I it's like I just lose it whenever he shows up on

Holly (01:14:50.015)
Ugh, so good. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:15:00.148)
parks because it you really is like it's incendiary. It's like a weird we were talking about evolution of shows. And what I get really excited about every time I talk about this is like how interesting that for some reason those two people, you put them here and then it goes boom. Like they were missing the whole time. But we didn't know it. And how did they figure out that they were missing that? And it was happenstance because it was really the network that sent them Rob Lowe when they were really looking for Adam Scott.

Holly (01:15:19.553)
So crazy.

Holly (01:15:28.46)
Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:15:30.066)
And Adam Scott had auditioned for what essentially became Mark Brandanowitz, which was a dud of a character. We didn't even talk about that. We don't need to. that poor man. Okay, that poor man. just like it's also interesting to see when a character just cannot take off, like they're trying so hard. And then they just bring in this guy, and there you go.

Holly (01:15:38.331)
I'm going to talk about it.

Holly (01:15:48.644)
my god. Okay, I have and there you go. Yeah, I mean, well, and what's interesting before we talk about Mark Branjinamits, which I literally have a post-it about Mark B.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:15:54.857)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:15:59.402)
yeah, you have the your your you got your binder ready. You got your Mark B binder.

Holly (01:16:04.653)
I I'm very Leslie in this sense. But before Mark B, okay, I did wanna say I think it's interesting too that Adam Scott had never he has been interviewed before and said that he had never really done improv before Step Brothers. And even in Step Brothers he was like really nervous, but I think he really grew into his comedy

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:16:16.084)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:16:20.789)
chops, I feel in Parks and Rex so much. And I don't even know if he improvised that much, but he definitely like became more comfortable with it. And I think that leads me to Mark B, because Paul Schneider, who played Mark Brandianowitz, has also talked about how before Parks he was doing a lot of like indie movies that were like comedy but serious, but like, you know, so he didn't really and it's not him. It wasn't him at all, because you know, both of them hadn't had improv. But I thought, because I've talked about to Norm about this as well.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:16:32.415)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:16:39.316)
Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:16:45.875)
No.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:16:51.21)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:16:51.345)
Norm Hiscock. But I I'll kind of ask a lot of the people, like th especially the crew, about him because I felt really bad for Paul Schneider, I think, just as a person and Mark Brandanowitz too, because of the way they wrote him. But I felt like one this was one of the best like explanations in the book about

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:16:59.956)
I yeah.

Yeah.

Holly (01:17:09.761)
why he had to leave, because I think everybody was just like, it just like wasn't working, like blah blah blah blah. And so I was just reading okay, I'm just gonna read this little portion of the book because to me it makes a big difference. Okay? So if you don't like Mark Brain Jenwich, just skip ahead, but don't skip ahead because whatever. Anyway, so it says, But after the pit became an apparent pit ball, the network instead wanted the show to shoot on location more, get the audience out into Pawnee aside from the pit, which we didn't really talk about, but that was one of the things too where like they discovered

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:17:14.601)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:17:18.825)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:17:39.319)
That the pit could not hold the show for seven seasons or however many seasons.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:17:42.718)
It was a funny idea that just didn't work in real life. Yeah.

Holly (01:17:46.31)
Right. And like we can refer back to it and it can be one of her first projects, but like it's not gonna sustain the entire series. but then it goes on your book goes on to say, in addition, they decided they needed a character who was a match for Leslie, both in terms of personality and in terms of worldview. Sure had said this.

and that is Leslie deserved a love interest who was not Mark Brad Danowitz. Not only was the chemistry lacking, but also their backstory that they'd slept together once and it had meant something to her, but not him, was bringing it down. And then Scher also said the reality was that it just didn't play that way. Like it was a funny joke, but it didn't play that way. It played as she's a weirdo who's obsessed with this guy.

And worse, it was sad. And that was the one thing we never wanted the show to be. So I started dreaming of a character who had a certain amount of skepticism of what is really possible, but also his soul is much more like Leslie's soul. And I was like, my God, that's what I have been needing. That is the closure that I think I've been needing for Mark Brandanowitz for quite some time. So thank you to you and Mike Sherer for giving that to me.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:18:29.79)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:18:44.51)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:18:48.701)
Yeah, I'm so glad.

I'm so glad it was, you know how like I always have this. I always go into books with like certain things where I'm like, there's no way I'm not asking about this. And then you you miss other things where later you're like, I wish I had asked more about that. But Brendanowitz was definitely one because I think this is part of the ongoing thing we're talking about of like the evolution of a show. And I'm fascinated, as equally by the fact that they bring the these two in and it's instant chemistry.

I'm also interested in like, why does this not work? I get it. And it's like so interesting. When sh I love that Shures is so forthcoming about it not working. That makes a big difference because a lot of showrunners would be like, Well, the network made us do this, or like whatever. Like they kind of like be defensive and weird. He was very, he's so analytical that he that I loved his breakdown of a specifically like in the room, we said, like, okay, so this character will be like this guy that she slept with once and

is still pining after, but he's not into it. And like, I think again, this might be a gender thing, to be honest. that like these are guys and they're wonderful guys who have wonderful attitudes on gender. I don't think it's that. I think sometimes you can just have a blind spot as to, for instance, what a woman can pull off, what a female character can pull off. And that that might have been at least part of it. Cause can't you see reversing it and maybe it's like funnier. or maybe it would have been stalkery and weird. I don't know. But you know what I'm saying? Like that they're thinking

Holly (01:20:07.489)
Maybe yeah.

Holly (01:20:11.959)
I do.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:20:13.812)
How this could be pulled off. And then when they see it in action, they're like, this is not it.

Holly (01:20:16.789)
Yeah. No, speaking of that, I mean I don't want to harp on it too much, but that's kind of what happens in like life in general too, where it's like I I think about Penny and the main dude in Big Bang Theory too. It's like, they just she he just wore me down. What? That's who you're what? Wore you down and now you're in love?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:20:30.514)
Yeah, no. No. That's n I hate that narrative. I actually agree that I do not think that works in real life. I've never I've always hated it, like if guys pursue me too much. So like 'cause you're like, no.

Holly (01:20:44.857)
There's a comedian, I think it's Jar Jared Freed, is that his name? Shoot, I forgot. There's a comedian who has a like a whole bit about that, like where that happens in real life too. Yeah, where it and like you're like, What? You don't ever hear like no, you don't hear that from like the lady. Like it's just or the other way. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:20:51.06)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:21:02.576)
Exac like that's ex yeah, exactly. And I do think you can see how it kind of mirrors this other the other problem they had of her like let's not say incompetence, but like her kind of like lack of popularity with her staff. Delusion. That's it. No, that's it. She actually she actually was deluded, I think, a little bit in the first season. And I believe that that Amy even said that herself in describing the character in those early interviews. So yeah, like

Holly (01:21:13.485)
Delusion, maybe?

Holly (01:21:20.737)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:21:28.862)
There's that's part of her delusion is also that she thinks she's gonna be with this guy. And I guess they were originally thinking of like really building this up in a Sam and Diane way until they were together. And but I just I think they also I don't know how much they tried the chemistry. They must have checked, but like it I never saw a lot of chemistry between the Leslie and Mark. I just it wasn't working.

Holly (01:21:38.699)
No

Holly (01:21:49.068)
Right.

Holly (01:21:53.802)
The part that really gets me is not only s

She Leslie needs a soul more like her soul, but the part where she deserves someone who wants her back. That's really like the part that really hit me because he is only wanting to be with her when he's like drunk and like sad over all these other ladies. And they also wrote him as a ladies' man, and that's not really Leslie's vibe either. And yeah, and like the whole thing when he kisses her at the pit, and it's not really supposed to be like a romantical moment, and Leslie needs more than that, and we need to see her get more than that. And I

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:22:02.622)
That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:22:10.172)
It's it's yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:22:22.302)
Right.

Holly (01:22:26.735)
I think that that was what's so wonderful about Adam Scott's character because like he cares in a different way, but then they can kind of come together and we always talk about how they're such a supporter of each of each other being grounded and and how Ben does have optimism. He's maybe more grounded in reality, but Mark did not have optimism. He had no positivity about it, even though what he was doing like was important. He w like this he wasn't

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:22:41.374)
Yes, yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:22:48.618)
That's right.

Holly (01:22:54.857)
okay with the small potatoes like Leslie was. And I thought that was really, really interesting. And so yeah, that really helped my soul.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:22:58.057)
That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:23:04.2)
Yeah, I'm I'm s I'm very glad. And I will tell you another one of my favorite moments that is related here. So when they bring Adam Scott on, I believe it's that episode. You know how they're like, they have a little bit of that, like, they're clashing at first, which is like, you know, they're gonna like eventually have a romance, but at first she's really mad for good reason because he's like cutting her department. And but for me, a big moment is the scene when he's like, Let's go get a beer and like hash it out. And they do

Holly (01:23:18.464)
Yes.

Holly (01:23:24.044)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:23:34.054)
And he says to her, You want to run for office f someday, right? And I that one, it's it's a personal thing. It just really gets me when like someone sees your ambition as something obvious and normal and something you will, of course, accomplish. And it is the first time anyone says that out loud in this show that she wants to run for office. And she's like, Yeah. And he says it the way he says it is like, Well, you will obviously succeed.

Holly (01:23:55.639)
So good.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:24:01.899)
Do you what I mean? And he both understands because he has the same ambition, but also is saying it not like, God, I can't believe you're you want to run for office someday, but like obviously you're gonna be mayor of this town eventually. Like he just sort of says it. And to me, that's where I was like, shit, this is our soulmate. Like it's already happening this fast. They sure cannot sustain, which I think is this is very charming. Sure cannot sustain like a conflict relationship for very long because he just wants everyone to like each other. Like,

Holly (01:24:02.891)
Yes.

Holly (01:24:18.517)
Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:24:31.826)
I think Rob Lowe is sort of supposed to be a villain here, but it doesn't last for very long because every time he brings toward the end, he's manages to peop make people so terrible that they really, you know, are villains. But it takes a long time. It's like he keeps introducing people who are supposed to be conflicts, and then very quickly it's like, are we actually in love? Never mind. you know, like

Holly (01:24:37.291)
Yeah.

Holly (01:24:53.741)
Well yeah, and back to your the beer scene too. You talk about that in the book where somebody, I don't remember who it was, but somebody wanted to like start with pouring the beer. Maybe it was Dean or some

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:25:00.03)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:25:05.054)
That's right. It's Dean is this is a Dean. I think this is Dean. It's either Dean or Morgan. Okay.

Holly (01:25:08.287)
Yeah, I think it's Dean because he wanted to like just cut it immediately and go to them talking. and I think that's such a small, tiny little detail that makes a difference, really. I mean, it probably doesn't make that much difference to like just the common person, I guess, but like when you're in the thick of it, I think it does, 'cause you get right to the crux of it. But that is so true. And that idea of him supporting her slash knowing her spirit and her ambition, like carries throughout the rest of the series and it's so important.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:25:20.19)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:25:37.084)
Yep. Yep. That is that moment is almost like, the series just started. You know what I mean? Like they could have started there and that's when it gets great. And if they just started around there, you you I actually tell people who are gonna watch for the first time, start with that episode. Because or maybe the one before like the one where they show up. Because you actually get it. You actually totally understand. And now the conflict has arrived, which is the department is in trouble.

Holly (01:25:41.984)
Yeah.

Holly (01:25:46.806)
Yeah.

Holly (01:25:54.804)
Mm, interesting.

Yeah. Well yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:26:06.539)
And these two attractive men are gonna be crucial to the success of everything going forward. So just like start there because it is so good after that. Like it is like so propulsive almost. When they started on the Harvest Festival, it's like a thriller. It's so gripping to me. I can watch it a million times.

Holly (01:26:26.667)
Me too. And yeah, I mean I think that's a good point what you said about it starting there because the and why it's important to watch before too, well when they first arrive, because I do remember feeling like like Leslie where I was like, they are so mean. Like, get out of my hair. Like stop it. But and w like Ben being so mean saying but not necessarily like

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:26:43.836)
Yeah.

Holly (01:26:51.765)
What he was saying was truthful. It's not like he was wrong in the fact that like w are the government has wasted money and I'm not here because, you know, you did a good job, quote unquote, that kind of thing. But I was like, my God, stop it. But like as that I think that was a really good scene to have for us to see, not only the support, I guess, but also just that Ben was there to do his job, not to like fuck everything up. You know what I mean?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:26:53.426)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:27:15.966)
That's right. Yeah, exactly. And then he and he cares about them and like he gets it. And also we get the Ice Clown backstory, which is

Holly (01:27:19.711)
Yeah.

my god. Ice clown makes ice town. So brilliant. my God. But speaking of the Harf Harvest Festival, so that episode is about the Harvest Festival because she has to use her you know, expertise to save the parks department. Which yeah, I agree. That episode is fantastic. One of the things that you wrote in the book that really stuck with me too was how they were starting to do the show in chunks, and projects. So I wrote or I like saved a little piece

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:27:29.427)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:27:47.774)
Yes.

Holly (01:27:52.194)
Though they had invented the Harvest Festival as a survival tactic that would make the writing writing the first six episodes of that season easier, Shur says the incredible bonus of it was that it was really fun to do and it gave us this template going forward. She should always have some kind of project that she's working on that allows us to tell many arcs within the season. We started thinking of seasons not as just twenty-two or twenty-four half hours of comedy, but as chunks of projects that she could be rolling out. And to hear that out loud, I was like, of course.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:28:22.164)
You're like, Yes, yes, you figured it out. You found it. Yes. It's so and he was like, I feel stupid that I didn't that might sound basic now, but it also I think again, it's like this is sit sitcoms didn't work as much that way then.

Holly (01:28:23.413)
Of course. This is like A plus B equals C.

Holly (01:28:39.629)
That's exactly what I was gonna say. Like it doesn't sound stupid at all because no one was doing that. Like one of the big things about Friends in Seinfeld was that you could pick up in any episode and be like, Yeah, this is great. Which has its own merit. But this was so brilliant. I thought it was really great.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:28:51.388)
Abs absolutely. Yeah. And and it is what d what does what I was just talking about. This is what it's like the the romance is a huge part of that. Both of the right, like Andy and April and then, you know, as we're going forward with Ben and Leslie, those are really helpful there. But then the other part of it is like, I mean, the Harvest Festival is like, I don't want to say not harrowing, it's not the right, but like ri I just remember the first time watching it and being like, my God, are they gonna pull it off? And of course they are.

Holly (01:29:18.453)
Is it gonna happen? Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:29:19.954)
Of course they are. They have to save the parks department. but you know, which is also fun because like, as we know behind the scenes, they were trying to save their show from cancellation with this. And they're I just love how they're like going full throttle and that he was like, Whatever ideas you have, let's do them now because we don't know if we're coming back. And that's what actually makes it so good, is that they're just doing everything and you never know what's gonna happen next.

Holly (01:29:22.251)
Yeah.

Holly (01:29:28.969)
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Holly (01:29:34.785)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:29:41.175)
So true.

Holly (01:29:47.028)
Yeah, I remember I I didn't do a lot of screenwriting, but I did improv in LA when I lived there and I took a screenwriting class, or maybe it was like a pilot I can't remember, like pilot writing episode class, episodic, whatever. Anyhow, that was like the main theme that I remember learning. They were like, do not hold out your best idea for like

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:29:57.193)
Yeah.

Holly (01:30:07.091)
season four or like even the fourth episode. Like throw what you have into it now. Obviously make an arc and make this community, whatever. But like throw what you have into it and the rest will follow. And I thought, yeah, I think they were learning that too. And I think that was really, really helpful. And I was also really interested in hearing about the writing process in general. you talked to Katie Dippold, who, my gosh, amazing Widows Bay fan, love all of her success right now happening.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:30:07.691)
For l later. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:30:31.242)
Yay Yes, I'm so excited for her.

Holly (01:30:35.981)
she wrote Beauty Pageant and I remember being so enthralled by that episode and really just like that's the first time that I saw her name and was like, fuck, like she's she's got it. and also of course seeing her as a as a nigardian. But anyhow, so Katie Dipple talks about in the book that when the writing process and

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:30:44.542)
Yeah. Yeah.

Holly (01:30:57.865)
the outline of the show and how sh you go into the room with the computers as she called it. th I think I actually might have saved a because I thought it was so interesting. I might have saved yeah, writing process. yeah. The the show conformed to Shur's recognizable style. After a writer brought in an episode, Shur would put it up on the screen in the room with the computers as Dipple describes it. And the brainstorming room was the one with the couches.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:30:59.69)
Mm-hmm. With the computers.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:31:19.625)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:31:24.031)
Mm-hmm.

Holly (01:31:24.683)
And I I like that Shurz has said like he wants to give everybody credit. and he's very and dip Katie Dippald said that. It's but he's very gracious in how he wants writers to have credits for episodes versus having his name on every episode and they got at least one episode per season, if not two or three. So that's really cool. And I I think it's also interesting to hear about like the fights that could happen in writers' room.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:31:29.471)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:31:45.928)
Yeah, I love that.

Holly (01:31:47.626)
All writers' rooms really. but especially in this one, it was really interesting to hear because of course you have your opinions. It's not just ego, but it's like what is the best joke and the best idea and to know that this show is a no assholes show, but still knowing that you have to fight for what you believe in, it's really it it was really good to hear.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:32:01.022)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:32:06.761)
Yeah, I think and I've heard this from other shows too. The Sex and City writers, their whole process was to to fight about stuff. I got really uncomfortable once because I was on a text chain with them and they were fighting in it. And I was like, I'm sorry, I started this. And they were like, no, don't worry about it. We do this all the time. They were like, This is just us. It's normal. but similarly, I mean, I think it makes sex with like part of those

Holly (01:32:14.359)
Mm.

Holly (01:32:18.992)
my god.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:32:29.78)
conversations on sex and city where it's like, I feel this way, but I feel this way. Like that came from that, you know, and but I thought it was really fun to hear, even on this happy lovey show, there would be like little factions that are like Andy and April versus not Andy and April, or, you know, we should go darker with this or not. And so many of them all said like, yes, I would fight fight. I think let's use that w in quotes, with sure on this.

Holly (01:32:32.661)
Mm.

Holly (01:32:45.9)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:32:57.31)
But like the best thing would always come from it, you know, like that that's part of how, you know, you're putting in different personalities. So you'd have like your dark people over here and they'd get in a little bit of darkness, you know, you'd have your sure, happy, fun, everybody ends up in love kind of angle, you know, all of that. And I think that's that is what makes it good at times. And certain people are like better at certain characters.

etc. All of that kind of comes together and I think is really lovely. And yeah, I think they were still able to like dip let's go with debate, not fight, debate certain things. And then, you know, at the end, sure would be like, I've made a decision. This is what it is. But he I over and over people were like, I he listened to everyone and then chose the best idea. That's right. That yeah, you don't you don't want to that is what I've learned to some extent that that is what a writer's room

Holly (01:33:21.933)
Totally.

Holly (01:33:29.239)
Sure.

Holly (01:33:41.013)
Yeah. And I think that shows how much they cared about the episodes too.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:33:50.525)
actually is, is a l you know, to being able to have these debates and it's debates slash bringing in your own experience. Like, actually this reminds me, this, you know, this funny thing happened to me once. Maybe we can throw that in. but yeah, that's what they are. They're you're just talking all day. So that's that's what happens and that's how you get good scripts. It's a weird job that is not like anything else. Cause even movies like usually written by one to two people and it's just not

Holly (01:34:06.701)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:34:19.656)
the same thing as going to a room every day to just talk it all out talk it all out, you know.

Holly (01:34:21.205)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think hacks did a really good job of having a writer's room like personified, which another Mike Sure slash parks people.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:34:27.518)
That's right. Yes. Yeah. Isn't that incre and like this this year's Emmys, probably two of our biggest, probably the actually I know, two the two biggest comedy juggernauts are Hacks and Widows Bay, both made by women who came from Parks and Rock, which I'm just so I'm proud of them, even though I had nothing to do with Parks and Rock besides writing this book. But it's so great.

Holly (01:34:48.813)
Amazing.

Holly (01:35:02.283)
So one of the last things that I thought was really not last, but like one of the things that really also stuck out to me as we wrap up is the Logavulin story. my gosh. So first of all, big shout out to Morgan Sackett, who you mention as much as the reason why Park survived as anyone else, and maybe even more because of his budget finesse and just everything in between, which amazing. He I can't believe he found a a

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:35:20.05)
Mm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:35:24.188)
Yes.

Mm.

Holly (01:35:30.881)
pit in an actual abandoned lot, which is amazing. And he found a way to get us to London and Paris and Logavulin. And we've talked about the you know, the need to well not need, but the want to have Pratt still be in the show when he's filming Guardians and all that stuff. And ha that's how London happened. But yeah, I had kind of saved the idea that it's it's crazy that so they use Logavulin for the listener who hasn't read this. They use the Logavulin just like as a

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:35:33.214)
I know.

Holly (01:35:57.208)
product placement, but not really product placement. It was like backwards where they found out first, Log of Olin found out. and we're like, Yeah, we'd love to have you out. And the idea that like it was primarily like all paid for essentially to get to London and Scotland. And then the NBC was like, No, we need a ten million dollar ad buy in exchange for the product placement. And they were like, No, we're not doing that.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:36:01.832)
Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:36:21.353)
Yeah.

Holly (01:36:22.005)
That's stupid. But like the idea that MBC was like, hey, this is all paid for, sure, go for it. I was like, what? And then yeah, Morgan Sackett is quoted as saying, we kind of figured out all these other ways to pay for it because the producers decided to go anyway, scraping together enough money from the budget.

And it ended up in the UK. And I was like, my God. And then Nick Offerman is saying too, like among the team of heroes responsible for this beautiful piece of work. Perhaps second after Mike is Morgan Sackett. And he's the wizard of this entire production, where Mike is the creative dad. That was so crazy to me. networks, you're on my last nerve.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:36:46.514)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:36:53.49)
Yeah. I mean, Morgan is I know, I know. Morgan is so great at his job. I don't know if I've actually ever seen this. and I there might be other people that I just didn't know about. but just I just can tell by the way everybody was talking about him. And then even dealing with him myself, like when I was then, you know, a lot of stuff comes up after you do all the interviews and then you're like, crap, I need to like.

Fact check this, do that, blah, blah, blah. Every single time. First of all, every time I asked anyone anything, they were like, Morgan probably knows. And then I just got to the point where I was like, I'm just gonna ask Morgan. And Morgan does always know. This is the thing. I don't know how you get this. It's such a specific talent to be a producer like this, who can it like the talent is that he can logistically make anything happen. That is the talent.

Holly (01:37:32.577)
I need to reach out. Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:37:49.251)
And I don't get it. I don't know. And the way he was able to rattle off like budgets to me, he could like look at a show and be like, I think that's around a what you know, 10K episode or whatever. Like he can guess based on what is happening, how much something would cost. He just, I mean, there's so like I also think of Philly Justice, this this like crazy side project that they did where they like shot a trailer for a fake law show and it's hilarious.

Holly (01:38:09.612)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:38:17.006)
when this came up in my interviews, I was trying to fact check it because I actually l legitimately did not believe Katherine Hahn that Dylan McDermott really showed up to do it with them. She kept saying it and I kept being like, That can't be true. That like doesn't make sense. Like, why would anyone do that? Why would he do that? And so I I emailed Morgan and I was like, Was he really there? And he was like, Yes. And she I was like, She said there's footage is there. This was before it was on the internet last year. And he's like,

Holly (01:38:29.618)
Ha ha

Why do be there?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:38:44.776)
Hold on, let me check. And like two days later, he sends it and he's like, please don't share this. And there it is.

Holly (01:38:49.831)
my god.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:38:52.468)
so I think it might actually be because of me that it went on the internet because like they dug it up and then they ended up putting it out. But yeah, just like but that to me was so so an example. I was like, I just experienced the Morgan effect of like you just say, like, I wish something. I wish we could go to the UK. And then a couple days later, he's like, Here's the plan for going to the UK. here's how we're gonna pay for it.

Holly (01:38:55.693)
That's hilarious.

Holly (01:39:15.873)
That is wild.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:39:17.32)
And then they sneak off anyway, and they sneak off to Paris too, which is like off book. And then NBC doesn't know they went to Paris until they see the rough cut. And then they were like, How'd you go to Paris? They're like, We just did. Don't worry about it. It's it's not your problem. Yeah.

Holly (01:39:22.783)
Yeah. They didn't even know.

Holly (01:39:29.321)
Yeah, it's fine. We it happened and you're right, exactly. Nothing you need to worry about. my god, yeah. So I thought that was really cool. but also like really wild to me. I mean, wild to me on the network's be like side, but also just I mean, at the end of the day, it was just a shout out to Morgan Sackett that I was like, wow, we really have this show, I think, because of him in a lot of ways.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:39:51.775)
A lot of ways because again, they were always on the bubble of cancellation. So we probably don't can't even know how much he must have done with that budget. I mean, I talk about the other times when he gets like the car placement in order for them to go to the Grand Canyon. You know, this is something that pr good producers do do behind the scenes, and we don't realize often when you see like a product placement like that, it's because they actually started with, like, we want to do this thing that's too much for our normal budget. How do we do it? Especially

Holly (01:40:11.49)
Right.

Holly (01:40:19.915)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:40:20.996)
mid-level shows, like not the big ones. and yeah, I think he was just constantly doing this stuff for them. And he's a very, he's this is all very this is how all the Sure people are, all of the cast and crew that work with him, it just comes down from him. Like they're all very calm. Do you know what I mean? There's this, there's this calmness to to Morgan that I think comes from not having a psycho boss. You know, Sure is this wonderful person too. And Morgan's just very like, okay, we're gonna figure this out. Let me

Holly (01:40:22.85)
Right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:40:51.07)
you know, make some calls, tap on my computer, and here you go. Do you want this, Mike Sure? And he's like, yes. And then they do it. Like it's just this is how it always should be. But again, it is actually the exception and it is why parks is so lovely.

Holly (01:41:06.251)
Yeah, that's a great point. Jen Stotsky, who, you know, from Hacks, who help one of the creators of Hacks, said that too in her book, I think. or your book, sorry. where you she mentioned like as a showrunner, she kind of saw, wow, make sure it did not

push the stress on us at all. We and we didn't feel like there was anything, you know, stressful, demanding. I mean demanding in the sense that I'm putting pressure on myself and want to make do a good job. But I think half of that is because you want to do like good work for good people. But I thought that was really interesting that so many people I mean he's just paying it forward. You know, you saw Greg Daniels give to Mike Sure. Mike Sure give to all these other amazing writers and producers and showrunners. So it's really, really beautiful to see. And I mean speaking of that

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:41:25.001)
That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:41:45.076)
That's right.

Holly (01:41:52.121)
too, it sounds like it was kind of that was one of the notes that I had, like in my if there's time section. I think that there's a little bit of time, but like the idea that Mike Sherd didn't seem at least from the book anyway, it didn't seem that he was as stressed about not really having like an idea, quote unquote, for this like spin-off or whatever thing they wanted to do. And by that I just more I more so mean like

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:41:58.792)
Yeah.

Holly (01:42:15.221)
the in the casting process. You talked about this where the process the casting process like almost revealed the script in a way that they hadn't noticed before. Like a lot of these auditions and stuff were not actually scripts from something that they've written. It was like a casting and then they kind of like with Nick and a lot of people, they were like putting things into the show from the casting process from the people that they ended up seeing. And I thought that was so fascinating.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:42:21.684)
That's right. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:42:28.511)
That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:42:37.939)
Right.

It really is. And it's like it's just a fluke of this is yet another reason that I want to do this book because it's just such a weird story. Of like it's a backwards development process for us. It is for them. It starts out, we want a spinoff of the office. And then so they kind of have this weird freedom of like, We are vaguely making a show, which never happens. You don't just go like, I think I'm making a show. I think I'll meet with some people.

Holly (01:42:50.71)
Yes.

Holly (01:43:07.533)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:43:07.762)
And we'll see what happens. Like you never do that, but in this case, they could because they had the power of NBC wanting to duplicate the office success so badly. So yeah, they can just take a meeting with, you know, I mean Nick for one, though his process was long and involved. But like Aziz was a great one where they just like saw him on TV on Human Giant, and then they just called him up and were like, Do you want a job? And he's like, Cool, sure. You know, so they did a lot of that where they were more.

Holly (01:43:26.609)
my gosh, yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:43:37.694)
That's why I think though the personalities so match up with the people who play them, you know, in this that happens a lot, but this is really like, you know, yes and no, of course. We always like to, you know, Nick's had problems ever since where he's has he has a whole song about like a how he's not Ron Swanson. But he kinda like you get you see the parts of him that they pulled into this just, I mean

Holly (01:43:44.673)
Definitely. And why was so good.

Holly (01:43:55.132)
yeah.

Holly (01:44:03.202)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:44:07.723)
one of the greatest characters of of all T V history, period.

Holly (01:44:10.549)
Yeah. I know that is crazy that the political like ramifications of writing Nick Offerman and some people taking that to mean that he's like a real life person who they're like well, he is a real life person, but like a person who they agree with.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:44:23.442)
He is a real life person. Right.

Holly (01:44:25.269)
You know, is not the and I think r he Nick did a great thing. I think it was on the Daily Show or something talking about that. and it was really lovely to see that too. but yeah, and I think I think Parks is good in the sense that they're similar to Veeep in a way where they don't ever really say like, you know, I'm Democrat or Republican or whatever. but they just focus on the issues in the community and then, you know, you draw your own conclusions essentially. So I think they did a really good job of that.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:44:31.882)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:44:41.855)
That's right.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:44:51.878)
Yes. And they talked, I mean, Sure said that was very deliberate, which I think is interesting. I don't think you could make it that way now. It would just be too weird and jarring and every it would bug everybody. the I wouldn't even know this if I hadn't written a book about it, but the one thing I did figure out because I was obsessed with this fact. cause they say that and then I'm like, is that true? Like I don't want to say that's true if it turns out they did say it a couple times. The only time they ever say it is at the very, very end when

Leslie says the DNC called and asked me to run. She does not even say Democrat, but she says that I mean it's so fast. And that is the only time. I mean, we would be very stupid to think that Leslie was anything except a straight up moderate liberal, moderate Democrat. Like she's it we see who she has pictures of. We see that she loves government, like she loves Joe Biden, you know, like.

Holly (01:45:24.245)
Holly (01:45:30.218)
okay.

Holly (01:45:45.89)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:45:51.548)
You you can guess. But it's very interesting because Mike said this too. He's like, I don't I think like we went off the air at the exact perfect time because, you know, right before it's like 2015 and then the 2016 election. And like he's like, I don't think you could write this this way now. There was still like a modicum of hope of like reconciliation. And then it just went out the window. But I also think this is why people part of why.

Holly (01:45:53.164)
Yeah.

Holly (01:46:01.749)
my god.

Insane.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:46:19.678)
people responded to it a couple of years later on streaming is because like it was this like time capsule of another more hopeful time when we could think that, you know, Leslie and Ron could work together without talking about this stuff.

Holly (01:46:33.781)
Right. A hundred percent. my gosh. That's c so crazy. Ugh well, the last note that I had was that I did want to mention that Dan Gore wrote the first verse in chorus of Five Thousand Candles. I forgot to say that when we were talking about it. And then my Mark Rivers obviously wrote the rest, and the sax parts and all that kind of stuff. But and another person that, you know, spun off from parks, you know, doing the Brooklyn Nine Nine.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:46:51.795)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:46:58.078)
Dan Gorer has had a really, really great career. And I do, I'm gonna tell you, this is a behind the scenes of behind the book story of that. Just a little thing, but I think it's funny, which is that when we first talked, I asked him about that. Cause as I said, I was obsessed with particularly 5,000 candles on the wind. And he was like, no, I wrote the first, you know, the first whatever verse and chorus. And then he was like, too bad I don't like, I don't, too bad I never got any residuals from that.

Holly (01:47:05.814)
Yes.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:47:28.616)
And I was like, really? And he's like, no. And then when we went to do fact checking, he wrote me back and he was like, so I looked into it. It turns out I have been getting residuals. He just didn't realize it. And I mean, they might not be tremendous in like you know, it's they're probably a couple grand a year or so. I don't know if that's even true. I don't know what the structure is. But I thus thought that that was so so we ended up like having to change his quote.

Holly (01:47:40.557)
Whoa

Holly (01:47:46.293)
Right.

Holly (01:47:52.256)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:47:58.205)
in the book to reflect that like that he had actually like does get because the original like end of that section was him saying like yeah too bad I don't get any residuals. And he was like, he's like, well we gotta fix that. And I understand that it's supposed to be like a good little joke at the end of that. So I'll rewrite it and make it something else. yeah. So that's like that was us on email like rewriting his quote because he's like, important fact.

Holly (01:47:58.709)
That's so funny.

Does get them.

Holly (01:48:24.321)
They were like included in some of the checks or something and he didn't know. That's so crazy.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:48:26.836)
Probably. I I think I I don't really know, but I can kind of surmise, just even based on how my own stuff works, that like especially if you've had a couple of hit shows and things, and I don't know if they're that also is going through the same agent. If it is, that's even more confusing. Cause like my my checks, for instance, don't come from my publisher, they come through my agent from publisher to agent to me.

And so if you're getting if you have several streams of revenue through that, you might not sit there and like stare at the statement every time. Yeah. And who knows if it's included somehow under parks. I don't know. But my point is I can see even it doesn't mean he's like unbelievably wealthy. It just means he might have many residuals from many things coming in and he doesn't stare at every check every time. So

Holly (01:48:58.369)
Itemized, yeah.

Holly (01:49:08.834)
Sure.

Holly (01:49:13.687)
Well it's good you interviewed him then so that he could look that up.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:49:18.108)
I know, right? I was like, congrats, I guess. That's great. because I was like very skeptical. I was like, that's honestly like wrong if that's true. You know what I mean? Like there is a wrong being committed because you really should be getting credit for having written a verse and a chorus of of that magnitude. So yeah. So there you go.

Holly (01:49:30.519)
Totally.

Holly (01:49:36.939)
That's amazing. my gosh. Crazy. Yay. Love that. my gosh. Okay. Well, one of the other questions or the last questions I guess I suppose that I had was if there was anything big, like top two things that you learned from this or favorite thing that you learned from this, like writing this. and that could be anything really, like emotionally or just factually.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:49:52.81)
Mm, my God God.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:50:00.778)
I'm gonna tell you, like, like the biggest thing is the emotional thing. And it's I sound like I'm exaggerating, but it's I'm not, which is I keep saying this was honestly like a spiritual experience for me. Like I'm I think I'm a better person having done this book because of having talked to these people and learned, I believe.

That all of this is true. I just think I would know if it wasn't as 100% pure and good as it turns out to be. Like, I just really I would have believed in say a no assholes policy anyway or whatever. And people say I say this too sure and about sure all the time. Like a lot of people say they have a no assholes policy. Not everyone does. He really did. And it just I came out of it realizing the importance of community, the importance of connection, the importance of having fun.

Doing something if you can, even if it's serious, you can still have fun. You can have fun doing canvassing for get out the vote. Like you can, you can make things fun. And I just the importance of surrounding yourself with good people over and over again, talking to these people, whether it was a Morgan or Mike Scher. I mean, certainly the the holy trinity of Mike Scher, Amy Polar, and Nick Offerman is like tremendous.

And here is one other behind the book scenes thing. Afterward, you know, after the book has come out. I did, well, first of all, Nick is an angel. Period. End of story. He just is. He is exactly as perfect as you think he is. Similar to Amy, that's true of Amy and Mike Sher. I have had interactions with both Nick and Amy's parents in the aftermath of this book. Nick's d Rick, Rick.

Holly (01:51:51.019)
Rick the dad. Yeah, okay, go ahead.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:51:54.583)
Rick did an event with me in Chicago. I invited him to come up and, you know, have a little conversation with me at my Chicago event. And he did. and Rick and Kathy Offerman both came into the city from the suburbs, which is like 45 minutes, could be even longer with traffic. And they came to the city and came to this event and were so gracious and lovely and wonderful. It was truly shocking. Like he gave me a hand-carved Christmas ornament as a gift.

Holly (01:52:24.001)
Whoa.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:52:24.594)
I was like, why are you giving me a gift? I didn't give you a gift. What are you talking about? and I did tell them I was like, I don't know what you did, but whatever you did to raise him, like, congrats a thousand times because he does not need to be like that when he is in Hollywood. And also, Amy's dad messaged me on Facebook and was like, I'm reading your book and I really love it. And then, but then, like, out of nowhere, also just said, like, I just want you to know that she is sh

As as good as she is at her job, she's even an even better daughter. And I was just like, Bill, what are you doing? What are you talking about? Like, why are you doing why are all of the perks' parents like the most down-to-earth, wonderful? I don't know, there's something, it's very it was so like he just needed to tell me he was proud of his daughter. Do you know, like like any dad? Like, just like Bill Polar loves his daughter, just wanted to tell me.

Holly (01:52:56.075)
my god like tears

Holly (01:53:18.337)
That's so beautiful.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:53:21.562)
And I just I I wrote him back and said, like, I don't know why all the parks parents are so amazing. But it really isn't that interesting though, that they are all so great. And then it turns out they have great parents. I don't know. I just think that's it's it really speaks to how you raise children can make a difference, you know, and that they have just remained these like incredibly grounded, straightforward, beautiful souls in and that that is no easy feat in

Holly (01:53:29.869)
Totally

my god.

Important

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:53:50.836)
Hollywood. And I think we can all see this on display now, for instance, with Amy's podcast. right. She really comes through on that. And I talk about this all the time, but like the reason that podcast is good and most celebrity interview podcasts are terrible is because she is a person who is genuinely curious about other humans and is listening.

Holly (01:53:51.744)
Yeah.

Holly (01:53:56.297)
Ugh, amazing. So good. Yes.

Holly (01:54:12.673)
Yeah. Ugh a hundred percent. Wait, how did you get Nick to write the foreword anyway? my gosh.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:54:14.12)
You know, yeah.

that's I mean, that was easy, actually. As it turns out, well, there's two things. I mean, I interviewed him really like before I even sold the book. I I interviewed him at the proposal stage because he is a great person. and then we found out like we're from a couple towns over from each other. And honestly, like, I don't know how to explain. I'm sure some people understand this. That's like it's not like, we're both from the Chicago area. It's like we are both from far flung Chicago suburbs, barely suburbs, way southwest.

Holly (01:54:19.725)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:54:46.812)
In the middle of farm country, or at least it used to be farm country. And like when I was like, I went to Lockport High School, he was like, Holy shit. And I was like, Yeah, I know where Manuka is. Like I I've been there. Like that's it's different than just like we are vaguely from the same part of the country. but then when I ended up selling the book, we ended up with the same editor. So that was actually the easy part. because she's you know, he's he's had an incredibly successful book career and he's been with the same editor the whole time.

Holly (01:55:10.893)
Amazing.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:55:17.258)
And so she has a really good relationship with him. So she was able to just like, you know, text him and tell him this was happening. Yeah. And and it was like the best possible situation. And that meant so much to me. It was like I actually cried. I didn't expect this to happen, but cause he read the foreword in the audiobook. And it was it was when I read the for when I listened to him reading it that I got emotional about it. Cause just like different from knowing he's doing it.

Holly (01:55:19.511)
That's so cool.

Kismet.

Holly (01:55:35.916)
No

Holly (01:55:41.495)
Teery eyed.

Holly (01:55:45.183)
Ugh I would have too.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:55:46.559)
versus like, wow. And then I was able to meet him at one of his shows here in New York, after the book came out. And he was just so nice and gracious and lovely. And it's just been it's been such a great experience all around. So it's really nice to be able to tell people that because not every show is the same as this. So not every show has has good good feelings like this. So it's really nice.

Holly (01:56:07.531)
No. I've been

Holly (01:56:12.012)
Yeah.

I know, I say the same thing about all the guest stars that come on our show. you know, so I've reached out to so many people and everyone, even if they can't like contribute a bunch, because I reach out to literally everyone. I don't know if people have noticed, but even if there's like one line, I'm like, how was it being on set? my god. And yeah, because I just think it's great. And s the amount of people that like I would have never expected to hear back from who message me with such detailed memories of their time and how great of a time they had and all these things, and just no negative things about Amy or any of the cast.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:56:24.052)
Sure, of course.

I love that.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:56:37.054)
Yes.

Holly (01:56:42.639)
master crew or how they were treated, like everything is just such a well oiled machine and even if it was like a hurry up and wait situation, it was still a good time and yeah, I I mean it's it doesn't feel real a lot of the times.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:56:43.527)
Never.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:56:51.561)
Yep.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:56:55.44)
It's really, I'm telling you, like I I have that's part of why I wanted to tell you like all the other sets I've been on and stuff, because it's like, no, I know how this stuff goes and there's nothing else like this. And the way that people I had the similar experience of like, you know, Paul Rudd got on the Zoom with me and he kinda he was like, I'm sorry, I he's like, I don't I was not on the show that much. And I was like, well, first of all, we all remember you very much from the show, so let's just

Holly (01:57:05.1)
Yeah.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:57:23.572)
For leave sometimes people feel bad that they can't be like the definitive authority on the entire show and they don't think they have enough to contribute. And I'm like, I'm very well aware of your role on the show. But he was like, But I wanted to get on with you because like I love talking about it so much that I was like, sure. Cause I just like that's f like and all of them too would be like, You wanna call me back again? Go ahead. Cause I just love reminiscing like this. And I it just, you know, I I it's so it's so special. And I think

All of us can learn very clear life lessons from the way that they conducted this. It goes well be it doesn't matter if you're making a show or any other job that you do. We can learn so much from what these people do. And they do it in a place where, you know, people are notoriously mean and horrible. And instead they were like, let's make this little bubble, you know, where everybody's nice to each other and everybody's having a good time.

Holly (01:58:16.332)
Yeah.

Holly (01:58:19.871)
Yeah, my gosh, that's amazing. Well, I just appreciate you being on here so much and I could talk to you for like nine hundred thousand hours, so we'll go ahead and wrap it up. But I will say, okay, so where can people buy the book? Is it better on your website or what's the best way to do it, or does it matter?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:58:25.748)
Sure. I know, I know.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:58:36.806)
Anywhere, anywhere. You can come to my you can go to my website because there's pages for this in all books, Jennifer Karmstrong.com. But anywhere you buy your books, you can you can buy this one. And I just I just want like the reason I want the success for this book so badly is because of what we were just saying about how wonderful their legacy and energy are. And so it just it's it meant this project meant a lot to me because of that.

and I just want as many people to hear about it as possible.

Holly (01:59:10.689)
Me too, me too, me too, me too. my gosh, a hundred percent. And last question do you pronounce it how do you pronounce your middle name? And is that your author name?

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:59:19.058)
Yes, Cation.

Holly (01:59:20.043)
Okay. Cation. Okay, great. just for when I talk about you. Okay.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:59:22.504)
Like vacation without the vey. Yep, absolutely.

Holly (01:59:26.99)
Perfect. Well, thank you so much. This was so fun. my gosh. And I'll be telling everyone about it. So yeah, of course. Thank you for everything. Thank you. Bye.

Jennifer Keishin Armstrong (01:59:29.567)
Thank you Yes. Thanks much. Please do, thank you, bye.